John Brady probes €5m fraud, ISAF trip and Baldonnell

Just a number of questions from myself. Just in relation to the fraud case, the £5 million, I know £2.5 million has been recovered, which is welcome. Has it been established globally or where that fraud originated? So I think, as I might have said earlier and said last year, I'm somewhat constrained I don't want to be as transparent as possible, but it won't surprise you that the money was moved quickly and through a number of jurisdictions, but in terms of trying to recover it... Do we know what jurisdiction? Well, we do, in terms of tracing, but I think it would compromise and I think even to guard a criminal investigation. So I want to be as transparent as possible, but I'm afraid I wouldn't. So it was moved? As these things tend to happen. And I know you're kind of precluded because of the ongoing investigation. Has it been established as to whether there was any state actors involved or was it just purely a criminal enterprise? It's very hard, like honestly very hard to know. I mean, this is becoming quite common, isn't it, all over the world and even people talk about nearly running businesses to do it, but money got moved internationally quite quickly and so it's very hard. We don't know the threat actor, but we saw where some money went and we managed to get some of it back. Okay. We've established that hasn't happened previously within NTMA. I suppose just a general question to the department. Any agencies under the remit of the department, are we aware of any other agencies with similar situations? Sorry, in terms of all of us? Yeah, similar to... We're not aware of anything other than that, no. Okay. Certainly not us, no. Okay. I just want to move on to the report back in March and I'll just read from it here briefly. On the French Riviera, the yacht-tripping city of Cairns may be best known for its film festival in May, but each March wealthy individuals of a different kind trung the resort. Irish property players have long attended the Hooli, but this year for the first time, an official Irish contingent showed up, the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund. What was the purpose of that? Yeah, so the purpose of that was it's an international property forum and the purpose of ISAF's attendance was to meet with and encourage partners to invest international capital into property in Ireland. It was the first time a decision was taken? Sorry, is that 2024? This was 2025. You've been there for the last two years? Yeah. Okay. And how much did it cost? I don't have on the top. Sorry. We can come back. Obviously, I think in 2024 we might have two ISAF staff, maybe three. Three ISAF staff, I think the first year and two last year. So it would have been flights and accommodation. Okay, so you might provide us with the full detail of that. It's also reported that banks, developers, property giants, mortgage lenders sponsored the trip? Sponsored ISAF's attendance, flights or accommodation or anything. Was there any sponsorship arrangements in place for any of it? No, there wasn't. No, but I think what usually happens in these conferences is that the sponsors that have stands and various tents and pavilions for presentations, et cetera, but none of ISAF's expenses were sponsored. None of ISAF's? Okay. Obviously, the minister attended and there was other senior officials that attended also. So there was a lot of media coverage there around a sponsorship arrangement. Maybe I'll ask the department. What was the nature of that sponsorship arrangement? As far as I'm aware, Deputy, one individual from our department went to this as well, but it would have been under normal rules around travel and subsistence. I'm not aware there was any sponsorship provided to the department. I couldn't comment on anything else. I'm not aware of that. But just in terms of purely the Department of Finance, I think it was just the normal rules applied in terms of the person attending. Okay. So there have been attempts to establish. I know the minister has refused to say how much the banks, developers, property giants, mortgage lenders spent to sponsor this trip to Cairns for this event. Yeah, I think it was the Minister for Housing. Our minister didn't go to all this. I wouldn't have any familiarity with that. So ISAF had no involvement in any of that and any costs were fully covered from ISAF's perspective. Okay. I just want to return to the issue of the Air Corps. Now, can I just ask, obviously, the first case, Mr. Breen, when was the first case lodged, taken? I think it was back, most of the cases were probably lodged, or the earliest cases were probably lodged around 2013, 2014. Okay. And again, just for the record, why did it take so long for, I suppose, the case to be settled, I think, last year, 2025? I can tell you, obviously, it's difficult for me to talk about any individual case, Deputy, because you'll understand that we have to respect the confidentiality of any plaintiff. But I can say this to you definitely, that during that period of time, from the time that the summons was originally served, there were delays following that in terms of how the file was progressed. Okay. On your side, were there delays? Yeah, not to our end. And as I said earlier on, I'm not saying that in any critical way, but there were delays until we finally got the settlement. Okay. And were there any disclosure actions taken against the discovery? Yeah, no, there was. The discovery wasn't actually in the case that settled. The discovery was in respect of the lead case, which actually wasn't the case that was first settled. Okay. And you'll probably be aware, Chair, that in that particular case, both the High Court and the Court of Appeal upheld our discovery applications to limit discovery, and the Supreme Court overturned that finally. And you fully complied with that, I think, where you found in breach of the Supreme Court? What happened was, yes, there had been a breach by the Air Corps in that it hadn't made a proper discovery, and they were ordered to make proper discovery, which they ultimately did. Ultimately prolonging the case. Yes, no, that did prolong it. So your prior statement that the delays were on the plaintiff's side. No, sorry, I wasn't impugning the plaintiff at all. I was saying there were delays there. There were delays. And I agree with you that one of them was the breach in relation to discovery that did delay it. Okay. And just in relation to, I suppose, Bal Donald, I think you portrayed the issue solely down to the engine room, or that's where predominantly, I suppose, the chemical exposures took place. Am I right? That was certainly based on the claims as pleaded. The references are to the exposure over a period of time relative to that particular locus. Okay. And you stated that the engine room, when was that demolished, you said? I think it was 2007, sure. Okay, 2007. I think earlier on you said 2006. I said no. I said I think it was disused in 2006 and ultimately demolished in 2007. So the engine room was still in use up until September 2007? I'm not sure. I honestly can't tell you emphatically, but certainly what I recollect was that it had been taken out of use and then was finally demolished in 2007. Okay. I have here in front of me an image from Google Maps from 2009 that clearly shows the engine room still fully intact in 2009. That's dated May 2009. Are you correct with the information you've given there that it was demolished at that time frame? Sorry, look, obviously I wasn't there. I don't know when it was exactly. What I was told was that it was demolished in 2007. Okay. Well, I think the evidence that I have is that it was still fully intact in 2009. So if the engine room was still in use up until September 2007, based on the information I have, the inspections carried out, when did inspections of the engine room commence? We didn't ever inspect that engine room on the State Claims Agency side, precisely for the reasons that it wasn't actually in use, Chair. Okay. Just the right-hand side of the engine room, that continued the avionic building, as it was called. When did that cease? Do we know when that ceased? I don't know. I don't have that information. That ceased as a classroom in 2008, 2009, and that was used by the Air Corps College. It's been reported 14 persons prematurely died from that building. And I think the information that I have is that, whilst there's an attempt to portray it solely as an issue around the engine room, 102 people are reported to have prematurely died as a result of chemical exposure and other serious failures throughout the rest of the airbase. I've just seen those stories in the media, Chair, but I mean, I can't comment on that. I don't know any causal link between those deaths and Baldonnell as an employer. Would you be, I suppose, I think there's serious concerns that chemical exposure was rampant throughout Baldonnell. Is that something that is being established in your view? Certainly in relation to the work that we carried out. Now, you can imagine Baldonnell is a very big campus, and it has many different parts to it. So our audits were carried out in different parts of Baldonnell, and certainly in relation to our examination, the management of chemical hazards was in accordance with, in terms of all of the performance, safety performance management paperwork that we saw, was in accordance with best standards. Okay. I just want to move on briefly to another area there. Just in your opening statement, you referenced that through the National Development Finance Agency, the NTMA provides project delivery, advisory services, and contract management services to state authorities on public infrastructure projects. So can I ask, in terms of some big capital expenditures, such as the National Children's Hospital, what role did or does the NTMA play in situations such as? I'll try and give you an overview because obviously we don't have our NDFA colleagues here, but the NDFA didn't have a role in the National Children's Hospital because it was set up as a separate agency. I don't have the correct term. And during the lifetime of that, they had very tangential. There was one request for a small piece of work. We can come back to detail, but they basically weren't involved. Okay. So there was a request around one piece of work? I think so, but we can clarify that. Okay. And other major capital projects, infrastructure projects? Well, one example at the moment would be Metrolink, of course, which has been run by TII, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, and the NDFA helped with one element, pretty much the PPP element. So they assisted TII to appoint KPMG as financial advisor, and recently they started a process to procure for what would be called the Design and Build, Finance, Operate and Maintain the system, which is separate to, you probably saw procurement around the tunneling and civil engineering work. So the NDFA would play a role to assist TII around the PPP element. Okay. And I suppose from the systemic failures in relation to the National Children's Hospital, has there been a review carried out in terms of the role that NDFA plays in terms of, I suppose, the assistance, the contract management services that it provides, because serious failures there on so many different levels. So has that fed into, I suppose, some of those other projects that you alluded to? Well, obviously I can't comment on the National Children's Hospital. We didn't effectively have an involvement, and I'm sure they'll comment themselves. But the NDFA role, you probably saw in the Government Action Plan and Infrastructure, I think it was number 24, that the NDFA will now try and play a bigger role to help departments on projects. So that can be from the early planning, the procurement approach, et cetera, and hopefully we can assist and take our experience and bring our experience to bear. And there's actually a joint committee of the Department of Public Expenditure, Department of Finance, NDFA, to see where, in addition to the work we already do, we can help. And then, of course, you've had the Accelerating Infrastructure Task Force that came up with a number of recommendations, and a lot more expert than me on that that have various recommendations.