John McGuinness: NAMA ignored families, demands answers

During the time when NAMA was dealing with the various property portfolios and issues arising from the work out of those properties, an awful lot of questions were asked, an awful lot of queries were put before NAMA and an awful lot of people who had been in business and finding themselves in difficulty after the crash were treated very badly. And that's a fact and that's held up by the number of people that appeared before the Finance Committee and indeed the work of the Public Accounts Committee and all of those people are being ignored. And I am deeply concerned by the way that they were treated and I have raised it continuously during the course of that time. I gave one example and this information is in the public domain so Annette de Vere Hunt was one such person. There was another individual where the young child of the family who was ill was approached by those that called to the home and it was unacceptable practice. But nothing has ever come out from that organisation to apologise publicly for what went on or any acknowledgement of the wrongdoing of that agency in terms of how they approached their work. And likewise in relation to some of the bigger property portfolios, particularly in Northern Ireland, at the time that that was being discussed there was very little help and information being given to the committees of this house to enable the committees to pursue matters in the interests of the citizens of this country. And there were particular cases that were mentioned. Now what concerns me about this legislation is the fact that when the officials of the department came before the Finance Committee they were outlining their approach to this bill, to the legislation. And it was pointed out to them that they would have to come back to the committee and give details on a case that the committee was dealing with and it involved the Butler family. Again it's in the public domain so I'm not breaching anyone's confidence here. They raised so many questions about not only their treatment as a family but the treatment of their investment going right back to the original loan from the bank. That it caused the committee to ask all of these questions and to let the committee hear from the Butler family directly, which we did at that time I was chairman of it. And I would say that most of the members who took on board what was being said were absolutely shocked that the circumstances of their case was not examined. And also shocked that an agency of the state would not present the facts or deal with the facts that the Butlers were presenting at that time. So it was decided that the committee would be briefed from the liquidator side and that the case would be, if you like, answered in the context of the facts versus what NAMA or liquidator had to say. And that never happened. And in fact they were to arrange a meeting between some committee members and NAMA relative to how all of this was being exposed publicly, how the facts were being dealt with if there were facts and what was the case from the other side which was NAMA. That never happened, even though it was promised to an Oireachtas committee representing this house. Now that was before the election. But I really thought that what they would do is that they would meet with the Butlers, that they would deal with each of the specific accusations or allegations being made and that each of those allegations would be answered comprehensively. And that did not happen. So now we're at a point where it's gone through the pre-led scrutiny and the specific cases that were of concern, particularly that family from Tipperary, that those cases have not been dealt with. So I feel that this legislation is simply going to railroad through this house that those that have been individually affected by the decisions of NAMA are not going to have the opportunity to be heard. And that those that have been heard through the Finance Committee are not going to be given the opportunity to have all of their questions answered. And if their allegations stand up, and there's lots of paperwork around it, then it would bring on further questions to other transactions within NAMA that are questionable. And I feel that the house has been short-changed here in terms of the legislation being rushed through the door and for the people that have raised the queries not being, I suppose, engaged with, and certainly the committee members that showed an interest in the Butler case, that they don't know the outcome. So the Minister should at least fulfil the promise of the officials and ensure that the details of that meeting as given to the officials are examined. I think that that's the least that we should do in the context of this legislation. And if that doesn't happen and we plough ahead with this, then we are simply adding further injustice to this family. Farms were lost, investment were lost, and as I say, the proof is there to be seen. So I want to ask you, Minister, will you make contact with the officials concerned? Will you invite in the Butlers to hear what they said? Or will you read the transcripts from the Finance Committee meeting and deal with the questions that were raised and deal with the commitments that were given by the officials to the committee members at that time? If you don't do that, then the whole process is just meaningless and lacks any form of democracy, any form of compassion as far as I am concerned. Because that family and others were invited to give their story to the Finance Committee because it was felt that it was that important. Now, during the crash, we have seen, certainly I have seen, many things happening to families that are questionable. Many of those queries were raised in various committees of this House. And enough of those queries were raised to give concern to the government. And that concern is not being reflected here because at least one of those families that I now know of is not being treated properly. And that is not the way it should be. Now, we took the vulture funds and so on that entered this country, bought properties, treated people badly, we just took it as being the way it was after the crash. And their behaviour here was utterly despicable. Utterly despicable. And it continues to this day because the manner in which the staff were trained, some of those staff have now moved to mainstream banking with the same culture and attitude that they had experienced when they were in vulture funds dealing with closing down operations, closing down families and so on. And we don't seem to be concerned about that because that is leaving a culture that is a legacy of a different time altogether in Ireland. And people are still paying that price. Only this morning I met with families that were dealing with the vulture funds and the fact that their loans had been transferred. You can't get information. You can't get a reasonable person to discuss the issue with you. Everyone is hiding behind GDPR and people are afraid to ask questions. But the questions that have been asked should be answered because they will throw a light on how other people were treated. We saw it in relation to the tracker mortgage issue. First of all there was hundreds. Then the governor of the central bank, now in Europe, in the central bank said it was around 5,000. It's over 50,000. And had it not been for the members of the Finance Committee pushing and probing on behalf of individual cases, we would not know the extent of that problem. And it's a mark on this state that that is the way they would treat their citizens. It's a mark on the European Union and the European Central Bank that they would have allowed that to happen. And here we are now doing exactly the same thing. Shark changing the people that we represent. People that have come to us in good faith asking for support and help. And I tell you Minister, it isn't right that they would be ignored. And if they are ignored in the context of this bill and how it's being pushed through the House, then it is a sorry day for Ireland and for the people concerned. And I don't raise that lightly and I don't say these things lightly. I say it out of experience on that committee, dealing directly with the people concerned. And I'm giving you the example of the Tracker Mortgage issue. To show you how wrong a Central Bank or officials can be. 5,000 versus 50,000. My God you couldn't make it up.