Peter 'Chap' Cleere: Demands Answers on RTÉ Pay Discrepancies

And you're all very welcome. Thanks for coming today. Unfortunately, this isn't another scandal. It appears to be the culture that is happening in RTÉ. And if I look back over the last number of years, between the Taisho musical and between barter accounts and hidden payments and failed IT systems and flip-flops and employment issues, this is an ongoing shambles, a never-ending circus of secrecy and spin. And I'm going to keep this very simple. I have two areas I want to focus in on. And the first one is just in relation to the recent revelations in terms of the payments to Derek Mooney. And three questions really quickly. Why did it take three years for someone in finance to uncover this discrepancy? How did it escape your attention, Mr Backhurst? And when you came in, did you not ask for a list of presenters and their pay? Why did it take three years? Because Mr Mooney was classified not on the presenter list, he was classified on the radio producer list, so it was a different list. Based on your income, I see the thing there that the highest paying producer in RTÉ gets paid 90,000 euro per annum, give or take. But Mr Mooney was on 200,000 euro, yet he's presenting one hour a week. And I'm trying to square the maths on that. If somebody is on the highest point of the scale and a producer and they're getting 90 plus, does that mean Mr Mooney was getting 110,000 euro a year to present a show for maybe an hour a week, to listen to a few birds singing and welcoming all as that is and imparting all as that is? Is that really good value for money? Well, he doesn't just present one hour a week, he presents the dawn chorus once a year, which is a whole year in setting up the international program. So how many hours will he do every week, every year? Well, it's not a question of hours, that's a seven hour program, but it's an international program that requires a whole year of setting up and liaising with... You think it's good value for money to have 110,000 euro? I'm always looking to make savings. I think it's really unfair to pick on Derek and ask is he good value for money? He's the one that you brought into the domain last week yourself. RTÉ brought Derek's name into it. So I'm just asking you, do you think it's good value for money, if the top underproducer side is 90, do you think it's good value for money that 110,000 euro be paid to a presenter to produce the shows that Mr Mooney is presenting? Look, we're always looking to get better value for money from everyone in the organization, but Derek's salary, he's on staff, it's a salary that was given to him years ago, his role has changed substantially. As you remember, 20, 30 years ago, Derek was on a lot of TV programs, he had a daily program on radio, that's when he started... Are there many other side deals in RTÉ? There's no side deal here, and there are no side deals in RTÉ, no. It seems very... Can I just be clear? Very sketchy. To be fair to Derek, there is no side deal here, Derek is on staff... I'm not talking about Derek, I'm talking about accounts in RTÉ, because in any other industry, a failure to transparently disclose financial arrangements would be described as creative accounting, or as we call it back home where I'm from, cooking the books. Sorry, go on. Sorry, just to clarify one thing around Derek Mooney's contract that's important. To clarify, I've looked through the contract history. In 2007, because one of the questions that came up is, if the producer scale is here, why has he paid so much? In 2007, he was given a personal contract, and that was the key point at which he diverged from that producer scale. I have to move on, because I've only a minute and a half left, and I've wandered a section to get to really quickly. So, just on the top 10 paid presenters, and you provided the list for the last four years, and some are employees and some are contractors, that's fine. But for those that are contractors, they're getting paid that figure to present. Am I correct in saying that? Yes. Are there any other payments going to the entities of those companies? Not that I know of, no. So if I take, for example, if I look at, we'll say, I'll give you an example here. We look at, we'll say, Brendan O'Connor, BOK Communications Ltd, 239 houses of contractor. Are there any other services that BOK Communications Ltd are getting paid for by RTÉ? No. Not from RTÉ? No. Not from RTÉ, no. Right, okay. Some of the individuals set up personal companies and have had them for years, because it's a, as we know, it's a sort of tax official way for it to operate, and they may pay other people out of the company as well. So the only payment that any of those companies get paid is for it to present for no other additional service? Yeah, those companies only get payments that are listed in the top 10, yeah. And just moving on, just in terms of the transparency side of things, and in terms of where we find ourselves today, and I'm very conscious of the time, I know we're coming up, but public trust has been eroded significantly here. What are you going to do to restore public trust, given the tsunami of incidents that have happened over the last three years? Well, hopefully the audience can see, we know we measure public trust and it has been increasing significantly over the last 12 months. These sort of things don't help, but you know, we have to take a decision. When we identify something, do we hide it away and not say anything about it, or do we come out and explain it and try and face the consequences and hope that it's received in a fair way? Because there are, you know, in an organisation, in any organisation, but you know, in RTE as well, there are going to be things from time to time that come to our attention. I can't be aware of every single thing in the organisation, and I was asked before, and the minister asked me yesterday, are there any more landlines? Do you have a regular schedule with the minister to meet? The chair meets the minister normally, but we go in as requested. When was the last time you would have met the minister? Do you mean in an organised meeting? I have to look up exactly when it was, I can't remember.