Richard Boyd Barrett warns bill will hollow out RTE

I'm against this legislation and I'm a little surprised that others haven't stated their opposition to it and I would urge people to consider opposing it. There's some good aspirations and even some good aspects to it which I would support. I'm for greater transparency when it comes to the governance of RTE I'm for better financial management of RTE and of money that's put into broadcasting, generally public service broadcasting. I'm also actually for more transparency and this is relevant to why I'm against this bill when it comes to more transparency and proper management of public funds going into the audio visual sector which includes public service broadcasting but also includes lots of other money that's given to the audiovisual sector where there's no transparency despite the fact that some of us, me in particular, have been urging the government to look at it, to have transparency, to have accountability, to have proper financial management and the government doesn't do it. So I do not believe that this bill is actually about achieving the things that it says it's going to achieve. I think it's going to do the opposite to that and that's why I'm going to be opposing it. Despite the aspirations, don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have the Comptroller and Auditor General look at and audit the accounts of RTE. Fine, no problem. If the bill was just about that I'd be in favour of it. What I'm not in favour of is an obligation of a minimum of 25% of all the money that RTE is going to be given having to be outsourced to the private sector and it's a minimum by the way because what that is is backdoor privatisation and there's no transparency once you outsource, none, to the independent sector. So we won't know what's done with that money. So if you think about it, all of this started, and my worst fears are being realised, is that the bad behaviour and obscene salaries of a small group of people at the top of RTE mean that ordinary workers in RTE who are in no way responsible for that bad behaviour and public service broadcasting itself are going to be the collateral damage for the bad behaviour and obscene salaries of a small group of people at the top. That's what's actually happening here and the net result will actually be that more money will go into areas in broadcasting and in the audiovisual sector where there'll be no oversight whatsoever, namely the independent sector. What oversight is there going to be of the independent sector? What oversight is there when the state outsources stuff? Well let me just give you one example that's kind of relevant in my opinion. I'll just set it out and I screamed about it at the time but you know as usual with Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael you're just wasting your time. The sale of Ardmore Studios, the National Film Studios, back in 2018. The government had a 32% stake in Ardmore Studios when it was sold to Olcott, a private consortium who also owned Troy Studios. Troy Studios, as we remember, a lot of money had come I think from Limerick County Council. I think it was all owned, if I remember correctly, and I stand to be corrected by Michael Noonan's brother, became Troy Studios and Olcott then bought Ardmore Studios, the 32% remaining stake, and they had the Troy Studios. Shuna Rattala was the CEO. That name should ring a bell. She was in charge of RTE later. So Olcott got hold of what had been the National Film Studios and the remaining 32% government stake, gave commitments at the time, because some of us were expressing concern about this, that they were committed to the people who were employed there and so on. Three years later, and I raised this with the Comptroller and Auditor General by the way at the time, I went in and met him. And in 2021, Olcott, headed up by Shuna Rattala and I think a guy called Joe Devine, sold Ardmore for a hundred million euro to Hackman Capital and Square Mile Capital, a US-based consortium, for a hundred million euro. The price, although we didn't get, there still isn't full clarity on how much did the state actually get for the 32% because they were writing off debts and so on for Ardmore, and a lot of money had gone into Ardmore through Section 41 and so on. But I think it was in the region of six million. So the state got six million and three years later the consortium sells it for a hundred million. Now to me that's, yeah yeah, that's public, that's something that was public, where we had some oversight of it, there was some accountability, goes to a private company and then ends up in the hands of vulture funds. And a huge fortune is made in the meantime. And we've no transparency around any of that. No real control over it, no oversight. Now that's what's going to happen in my opinion, slowly but surely, what's happening with public service broadcasting. This is an example with this, the requirement to outsource to the independent sector. Who's going to check what the salaries are for the producers in the independent sector? Who's going to ensure that there's not bogus self-employment, something we know was an element of what was going on in RT, disgraceful treatment of workers in there. But by and large most people had proper jobs, they paid tax, had pensions and so on. Some people were treated very badly and there was some route to trying to resolve that and reclassify people who've been bogusly self-employed. What's happening in the independent sector in terms of employment for workers? Because what's going to happen is proper paid jobs for crew in RT are going to be progressively replaced by people in the independent sector where, at least my understanding from talking to people, is where the producers, the members of SPI, Screen Producers Ireland, are basically telling people if you want to work on their productions, whether the scripted or the non-scripted, a lot of the new stuff is going to be the non-scripted sector, but in either case are told they have to set themselves up as private companies. Individuals, there's not PAYE employment, so they won't be paying PAYE tax anymore, whereas if they were doing that job in RT, if those productions were being done in-house in RT, they'd be paying tax and they'd have some jobs security, but now once it's in the independent sector, privately owned, who's going to make sure it's not bogus self-employment? From what I hear, it's just rampant and you won't basically, you won't get to work in that sector unless you agree to set yourself up as a private company, and so the individuals, whether they're plasters or riggers or whatever it might be, have to set themselves up as individual private companies. So they're not employees, and by the way, as well as getting money it seems from RTE, and there's another source of money which I think is interesting in and of itself, has been going on, I think it's still going on, maybe the master can clarify, but certainly a few years ago about 400,000 euro or more was being paid by RT to Screen Producers Ireland, the representative group of the private companies in the independent audio-visual sector, producer companies. Why is public money going in to run a representative organisation of a series of private companies? I don't understand that. I don't think public money goes to IBEC, does it? I don't think so. Unless I missed something, but it's going to the screen producer equivalent of IBEC, and I think that's been going on, right, who are very pleased about the commitment, I got their document, very pleased, very happy with the requirement in this legislation that 25% of all the money of RTE is going to go to them, as well as the money they get to pay to run their organisation in a situation where nobody has a job in that sector, and where workers are fighting to get proper employment, because it's gig to gig. So we go from people having jobs in RTE, and remember, to just reiterate, these are the workers who didn't have obscene salaries, whose jobs are being replaced, because I'm absolutely for capping the salaries of the top people of RTE, they were obscene. But it's the jobs of the ordinary people, the crew, the people on the cameras, all these people, right, their jobs are going to be replaced with people who will now work gig to gig. They'll go from proper jobs into the gig economy, and therefore they'll be totally vulnerable, because will you get on to the next gig? Well, not if you complain about the hours. I mean, I showed, I mentioned to the Minister a report that Screen Bills Ireland did a survey, which they never published, because the responses of the people who worked in the sector were so bad, it looked so bad for the industry, they never published them, because they were all about the long hours, poor pay, no career progression, never listened to, understaffed, under-resourced, it was absolutely damning, so it was never published. That was done a couple of years ago. So is this what's going to happen to people who are working in the independent sector, where more money is going to go? And this is happening simultaneously when section 481, the film Tax Credit, which previously was for the scripted sector, because it contributed to developing an industry and to Irish culture, producing stuff in relation to Irish culture, is now going in the independent sector to stuff that doesn't necessarily do any of those things. I mean, I was just reading an article there a while ago of Gordon Ramsay's cooking show being produced in the independent sector. Now, what has Gordon Ramsay exactly got to do with public service broadcasting? Is Gordon Ramsay or quiz shows, you know, US quiz shows, is that contributing to Irish culture? But are they going to benefit from tax breaks and from money that was supposed to go for public service broadcasting? Is that where it is going? Because it looks to me like the bits that were making money in RTE are being asset-stripped out, and the jobs, where it was decent jobs for ordinary people, are now going to be thrown into this private sector where there's no oversight. I think you need to clarify you're making your point by using an example rather than an insinuation against... No, I'm asking questions about what I think may be happening. But that individual... I'm entitled to ask whatever questions I like. Yes, Deputy, but you can't bring somebody... Who did I mention? Mr. Ramsay. I'm simply making... And that's what I'm asking you to clarify. Gordon Ramsay's cooking show was made a couple of years ago down in Wicklow. Yes. Now, what has that got to do? And did they, I'm asking the question, did they benefit from public money? Will they benefit in the independent... Because that's made by the independent sector. That we're now... 25% of RTE's money has to go to these people, to the producers. And an awful lot of the stuff that is made here, where it's getting Section 481 money, it's getting Screen Ireland money, and now it's going to get RTE money. And as I said, the Screen Producers Ireland, the representative group of that independent sector, have all along, or for quite a number of years, been getting hundreds of thousands from RTE as well. Private companies. So this looks to me like a hollowing out of public service broadcasting, using the excuse of bad governments and bad behaviour by a small group of people at the top. So I'm against that. I'm against throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'm against public service broadcasting, decent quality employment, and training, and indeed the wider public interest being thrown out because of the bad behaviour of a small group of people, which could have been dealt with by imposing a cap. Simple. A cap. And everybody's on the salary scales that are transparent. Because I tell you, the salary scales, the payment, the employment, the training conditions of people in the private sector, the independent sector, will not be transparent. Who's going to be checking on them? Won't happen. So all that money will just go out and we'll have no control whatsoever. It's not benefiting the public, it's not generating public service broadcasting, it's not generating quality employment and training. Very much the opposite. So I'm very, very concerned. I believe the hundreds of workers in RTE are balloting for industrial action because of their concerns about this. Where's the RTE orchestra going to live? Thank you, Deputy. I couldn't say more. Thank you.