Richard Boyd Barrett Questions Dundalk IT's Future with Queen's

to all our contributors. And listen, I'm an art student, so technical stuff kind of, you know, takes me a while to get my head around. What? It's nothing wrong, Mark. It's nothing to do. So if I'm asking the sort of idiot guide questions, please forgive me. So Dundalk is currently on its own as an IT, one of the last remaining ITs, with IADT, Dun Laoghaire. And I want to ask about that in a sec. And in the, what was the name of the document, the regulatory impact assessment for this that was done before, it suggested that being on its own for Dundalk was, quote, a strategic risk, being left as one of the last ITs. So because all the rest of them have now become part of the Technological University of Ireland. So is the IADT, as the one that is last remaining, is it now vulnerable to a strategic risk of being the last one remaining? That's one question. Number two, the IT is going to be dissolved, Dundalk IT is going to be dissolved, and it's going to become part of the Technological University of Ireland. Am I right, under the TU? Technological University College, yeah. Simultaneously, it's going to become part of Queen's. Or following that, it's going to become part of Queen's. Now I just want to get my head around that, because it ceases to exist as it currently is. It becomes part of Technological Universities of Ireland, and at the very moment it does that, it becomes part of Queen's. So for example, if you were working there, who's your employer at the end? Who is your employer? How can you be sure that the conditions, in terms of conditions as somebody who works there, that pertain in the Technological Universities in the south, will be protected now that you're an employee, or are you an employee of Queen's University? OK, I see people shaking their heads. What say does Queen's University have in what goes on in Dundalk? What say do they have in the awarding of degrees, or making awards? To what extent does Dundalk retain its autonomy in relation to all of these things? To what extent do the people in Dundalk possibly have to fear? Because often when partnerships, mergers happen, somebody decides, well, we've got replication here in a number of areas, and we could possibly ditch this and ditch that for, quote, efficiency purposes. So could you maybe say something about what assurances and protections there might be to ensure that that isn't the case? Now, I should have said at the outset, we all welcome this as a nice idea, a very good idea, for all the obvious reasons, right? University status, all Ireland, but there are concerns. And I mean, I was talking to people who were working in the sector, if you like, down here. They were just pointing out to me before this that hundreds of people were laid off in the University of Ulster recently. And that might strike fears into people. So is that coming down? Are we going to import some of the bad stuff from the UK or from the North that might be happening into the South? They might have similar fears up there. I don't know. Anyway, so those are some questions. W.I. Barrett, they're useful questions. I might, where to start? But maybe we'll start with the Technological University College and the extent to which it would be part of Queen's too. So Dundalk will become, under this legislation and the subsequent processes, a Technological University College of Queen's University Belfast. That's largely an academic recognition structure, which my colleagues in QQI might want to comment about. But in terms of the regular day-to-day operations of the Dundalk University College, they still engage with the Higher Education Authority, for example, in the same way. So we will still have a performance agreement with them. They will still be funded through the same funding structures and will retain, to a large extent, all of the institutional autonomy which they currently have. The benefit is that they will have added expertise from Queen's University Belfast and will be giving a different kind of academic award, which, again, my colleagues in QQI are better placed to comment on. In terms of the governance structures and the opportunity for change, there will be some representation from Queen's. So Queen's, for example, will have some seats on the Academic Council, which will look at academic processes and the rigor of that will have some space on the governing body as well, too. Would that be vice versa? No, it won't be vice versa, I don't think. Victoria, off the top of your head, do you know? So there's an academic board to be established to ensure the alignment of processes with Queen's. And I might defer to my colleagues in QQI to speak on that. Yeah, I'll do my best. It is a very technical piece of legislation. So the questions are technical in nature. You're correct that the Dundalk Institute of Technology is dissolved and it's replaced. It is replaced by Dundalk Technological University College as a standalone entity. And it will be a designated awarding body and it will be a relevant provider. So essentially, to that extent, their legislative standing and their statutes. In the technological universities of Ireland? Yes. Well, under our act, they're a designated awarding body, which gives them the autonomous awarding powers to make awards in the NFQ. There is a similar situation in the state. RCSI is a designated awarding body in its own right and it chooses not to exercise its powers as a designated awarding body. RCSI, and it goes to the National University of Ireland, who is its awarding body. Obviously, the change is that Queen's is in a different jurisdiction. So Dundalk Technological University College will be a legal name of the institution. And then that is for business arrangements, HR, finance. And then separately, as Tim alluded to, there is an academic relationship where it becomes a university college of Queen's University Belfast. And that is purely an academic arrangement. Queen's already has two university colleges in the north. So this is not a structure they're developing specifically for Dundalk. It's a system they're replicating. And again, it's a system that we do have here in that many of our universities have what we call linked providers, which is very akin to the relationship. So they are the awarding body of programs provided for someone else. So an example would be the National College of Art and Design is a linked provider of UCD. So UCD acts as the awarding body. NCAD provides and has its own legal standing as an entity. In terms of the power over awards, Queen's will have all the power over awards in this arrangement. Dundalk will propose. This is a matter of interest. Sorry, Mike, just stop you. Do you know, and maybe it's not your area, but do people say staff in the NCAD then have the same terms and conditions as UCD? No. No. No. NCAD exists under its own legislative provisions as an NCAD act, which provides for a structure. As you identified, Deputy, it's an extremely complicated landscape. And I'm sorry, I'm an arts graduate too, and I barely understand it. Sorry, back to my expert colleague. It's similar, that Dundalk will still be established under its own legislative provisions. Queen's is established under its own legislative provisions, and all they will share is an academic relationship. So as Victoria mentioned, there will be an academic board. Again, that's very typical in universities that you establish this kind of shared program board with your variety of university colleges, where you ensure that there's consistency between the university colleges. So Queen's will become the awarding body of Dundalk. So Dundalk will propose programs to Queen's. Queen's will approve them, validate them, and include those awards in both the framework of higher education qualifications in Northern Ireland and the national framework of qualifications, should they be successful as a lab. And then Queen's will also do the certifying and the individual awarding of degrees and other qualifications to the learners who have completed their program in Dundalk. And to say the listed awarding body scheme is entirely designed to do this, that's what the policy imperative is. So it's not that it's kind of a one-off thing. This idea of having an awarding body make awards on behalf of a different provider is very common, and that's exactly what the scheme is designed to deliver. I'm sorry, Greg, I know I'm over time, but the question about Dún Laoghaire IADT, and is there a strategic risk in the same way as it was identified with? I would think slightly less so. And we are having ongoing discussions with Institute of Art, Design and Technology at Dún Laoghaire about their future. The reason I say less of a risk is because they are a particularly specialist institution. And no more than Dundalk, they are very good at what they do. But Dún Laoghaire are extremely good at what they do. And to my mind, and it's not my call, but as a specialist art, design, technology institution, there's a significant opportunity for them in the landscape. So we're working through with them what might be the transformation, because this is all about transformation. Technology universities have been coming together of smaller institutions to be a larger institution that can be somewhat transformative in the higher education landscape. The cross-border aspects of what Dundalk Institute of Technology are proposing with Queen's will be truly transformative on the landscape. And we're working through with Dún Laoghaire what the transformation might be for them in that context. And having said that, they have been through a significant set of transformations in recent years. As an institution, they're extremely well-placed. Sorry, I'm going to go over time. But I think that the risk is far less for them because of the type of institution that they are, where they're located, and their program provision, and the level of expertise that they have available to them. And we are having those conversations with them. Indeed, we're funding them to consider their place in the landscape of what they might do. And I expect something significant there in the coming years.