Ruth Coppinger: Calls out handling of counselling notes
Ruth Coppinger addresses the Dáil about gender-based violence and the treatment of survivors' counselling notes in the Criminal Law and Civil Law Miscellaneous Provisions Bill. She condemns how the issue was included in a crowded bill, outlines survivors' concerns and critiques the minister's remarks and the government's approach.
Survivors' concerns
Ruth Coppinger highlights calls from survivors and the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre that raw counselling notes should not be routinely disclosed in criminal trials. She says the way the issue was shoehorned into a larger bill risks squeezing out amendments sought by survivors and campaigners.
Ministerial remarks and backlash
Coppinger recalls a committee-stage exchange in which the minister suggested counselling records could undermine prosecutions, a line she and others say risks implying complainants are lying. She told the Taoiseach that such assertions have no place in these debates and said survivors deserve better understanding of how therapy works.
Legislative changes and limits
The Taoiseach and minister argue the bill introduces a presumption of non-disclosure and extends protections to medical, child protection and social work records, with judicial oversight. Coppinger acknowledges improvements but says the measures fail to fully protect survivor agency, do not ban raw notes, and leave important procedural gaps.
Next steps in the Dáil
Coppinger warns survivors are watching as the bill is concluded and expresses disappointment that stronger protections, including explicit non-disclosure and narrative alternatives to raw notes, were not secured. She stresses the need for clearer safeguards within constitutional constraints and for better engagement with survivor groups.
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Taoiseach, I want to send my sympathy and solidarity to the man that was brutally attacked in Belfast and to the all affected by the subsequent racist violence and I'm going to refer to it in my QPL. Taoiseach, I want to raise with you again the issue of gender-based violence which you and your government acknowledge is an epidemic, it's largely unreported and one of the key reasons is the hostile, traumatising and misogynistic legal system that so many complainants face and the issue of survivors counselling notes being used in trials has been an issue raised on the floor of this Dail and campaigned on over a year now by survivors and also by the Rape Crisis Centre and it's shocking and disgraceful the handling of this issue by your government shoehorning that issue into 12 or 13 other, squeezing it in with so many other issues into a new bill which will finish tonight at half nine or so or a quarter past nine we'll gather here and survivors will be in that gallery because they want to come and see this through to the end and they'll see it squeezed and potentially amendments will not be reached for debate, amendments sought by survivors, amendments sought by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre which your minister refused to even meet to discuss their proposals for dealing with this and I think the minister let the cat out of the bag at committee stage when he said to Sinn Féin deputy and to myself but what if an individual whom he was counselling provided information to him in that counselling session and subsequently there was a criminal trial taking place and he had a record of what was said to him that completely undermined what was said in the prosecution. You know in other words women lie and counselling notes should be used and potentially can be used as evidence to try to catch them out and he said I cannot ban the counselling notes. Now what the minister has always said and you've said is that it's unconstitutional but you had a chance to even within the Constitution make really strong privilege and very quickly in the 45 seconds you've done nothing to limit or regulate Gardaí or the DPP seeking the notes, the Rape Crisis Centre had asked for a court order at that stage, doesn't improve the standard for disclosure, you broke a promise to introduce presumption of non-disclosure explicitly, doesn't require the accused to engage with the facts of the case at application stage, removes survivors agency to consent or not, continues the violating practice of raw counselling notes being handed to lawyers and the accused, does not expressly state counselling notes aren't evidence, no legal advice to survivors about the whole process and the complainant only notified of an application order after the court order pretrial hearing is given. There is a total ban in Tasmania but I think you could have gone much further and survivors are extremely disappointed. Taoiseach please. Just at the outset I think you should maybe I mean I think the assertion that you made there in respect to the minister that you kind of made a few leaps and sort of said the minister is saying that women lie in court cases I think that's outrageous and should be withdrawn it's no room for that in debates of this kind and neither should you I think a lot of people we're all coming to this issue with in a bona fide way. That's the first point I would make. There's no agenda here. We agree that violence against women and domestic violence in particular is at an appalling level and there are multiple factors responsible for that and legislation can help. I think the reforms that last government and this government have introduced particularly the establishment of Kuhn, the expansion of refuge places which needs to happen faster and at a more accelerated pace if we can get the infrastructure delivered and a range of other measures is testament to that and there's also cultural issues and issues to deal with the increased prevalence of violent pornography online and so forth which we really have to deal with which I think is a factor in the level of violence against women and the misogyny that we're experiencing in our societies and the Minister has sought within the constitutional framework and within constitutional parameters to deal with the issue of disclosure and the criminal law and civil law miscellaneous provisions bill endeavours to do that and to ensure in the first instance that judicial oversight governs the disclosure of any counselling records so that the rights of victims to privacy are always taken into account. On the 19th of May the Minister brought forward further amendments to the legislation to further restrict the disclosure of counselling records and in this context the presumption of non-disclosure was introduced in relation to these records a presumption of non-disclosure ensures the legal status of these records is that they are not to be released except in certain circumstances. The current protection regime will also be extended to the following personal records medical records child protection records and social work records and those records often contain highly personal information and are currently at the moment routinely disclosed so these reforms will ensure that any disclosure of sensitive material only occurs where necessary and always subject to strict judicial scrutiny. It's a significant strengthening of the law over what we have it restores the original intent of the original legislation and it's a better balance between competing rights and of course the constitutional rights are significant in terms of the accused rights to a fair trial so these are not ministers and just saying this for the sake of saying it there are significant constitutional issues that have to be navigated into drafting of this legislation this is a significant improvement on where we are and I think it should be acknowledged as such. I think the minister's remarks could certainly be interpreted that way and I think they show a complete lack of understanding about the impact of this issue and also about how therapy works where people can often blame themselves where they can take on guilt where they can say maybe it was my fault and all sorts of things I'm not going to go in to all the details again I'm just going to state what is in the law. Within the Constitution there are other rights there's a right to privacy there's a right to dignity there's a right to health care I believe there's contending rights there I'm not saying it's easy but I think that there could have been there's human rights as well and but even within the limit of the law the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre did contribute a detailed submission senior counsel that you know and drafted it up there isn't a presumption of non-disclosure stated in the Act that's that's in the bill that's the reality it could have been stated. The Rape Crisis Centre put forward the idea of a narrative rather than raw counselling notes being handed over and I think minister the Canadian system seems to be what you're repeating which hasn't reduced requests for access to the notes. I think I appreciate that you've acknowledged that it's not easy and that there are difficulties in terms of framing legislation within constitutional parameters here and that is the at the core of this and I would have much empathy with the broad argument in terms of the disclosure of counselling notes but this legislation represents a very significant improvement and strengthening of the legislation on behalf of women in particular as opposed to what we had. Now there has there had been a request for additional time my understanding is that was facilitated by the Chief Whip and that I think there'll be two hours and 30 minutes in total this evening for the for the conclusion of the legislation and itself. Thank you.
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