Richard Boyd Barrett: Questions IDA, Enterprise Ireland Role in Arms

So, Minister, the thinking behind all of my amendments arises from concern about the involvement of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland in the promotion of the arms industry and we'll get on to the question of Section 8 when we reach that, but it was in spotting what's in Section 8 that made me alarmed about the trajectory of government policy in this area and made me then consider the whole bill in that light, namely that the IDA and the Enterprise Ireland, that the government may be in this bill, or it seems to me are, looking to free up Enterprise Ireland and the IDA to get more involved in promoting military industries and the arms industry and Ireland's involvement in those things, which I would be very much opposed to and I do believe, despite the protestations of the Ministers in the second page debate that none of this has any impact on Irish neutrality, I would be concerned it does, because to my mind Irish neutrality should be about doing the opposite to promoting the arms industry and there's very definite ramping up of the arms industry in Europe at the moment, we have a big push for greater military spending, we have Donald Trump goading Europe to spend more in the military area, that's to me just in and of itself a good enough reason to do the opposite of what Donald Trump says, but instead Europe seems to be pushing headlong into developing the arms and defence industries in Europe, spending more in these areas, so it concerns me that that's what's going on here, or this bill is significantly about that, so I want to try and forestall that with these amendments and suggest that the IDA and Enterprise Ireland should not be doing anything that is about promoting the military, our arms industries, so in section 4 that includes not making consultancy grants to consultants in relation to military activity, or in section 5 not making loans to companies or land, in relation to land to companies where that company promotes military activities of a military kind, or not disposing of land to a company where it engages in military activity, because I don't believe that we should be encouraging the development of those industries, and there's an opportunity cost when you do, when public funds go into those kinds of areas, then that's public funds that could be going elsewhere, into industries that are born by nine and socially beneficial, of a socially beneficial sort, like developing medical equipment or stuff that is beneficial to society and doesn't harm or destroy society or human life, so that's the logic behind these amendments, Minister, so I'd be interested to hear your response, and I'm particularly interested to hear what you can tell us about the involvement of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland in the military sphere and sector, like how much involvement is there currently, and is it a government policy to sort of promote that engagement with the arms industries and with the defence industries, is that what government policy now is, that there's a bigger push to get involved in that area, and of course one just final point I want to make is that something that emerged around the time that this bill came into the Dáil was the revelation that in 2024, I think it was, in the midst of Israel's genocide in Gaza, that 20 million euros worth of dual use goods were approved by your department to go to the IDF, and that's really a fairly alarming example of where our engagement with the arms industry can then end in us being involved in something really horrific, namely the uses that the IDF put to the technology that we in this case, we might be providing them with to perpetrate genocide against the people of Palestine, a genocide that continues, and the fact that subsequently the department seems to have itself, probably on the back of the ICJ advisory opinions and just a huge worldwide outcry about the horrors that Israel was inflicting, subsequently decided to stop approving licenses, I think, but again you could go through the details of this, of dual use goods to the Israeli military, means that the department started to become aware that we were doing something wrong, that we might have been previously contributing to Israel's capacity to commit genocide, because why would you have allowed 20 million euro, which represented a surge on the 12 million euro in the year previous, and then that, which is in 2023, and that is a huge surge on previous years where I think the figures for similar goods to the IDF were kind of a million or less. So they jump in 2023, the year the genocide in Gaza begins, and jump again in 2024 in the midst of the genocide, and then I think in 2025 there's a change, seems to be a change in policy by the department to the effect that they're concerned that these goods might actually be being used by the IDF to perpetrate the crimes against humanity and genocidal crimes that Israel is committing in Gaza, all of which suggests we are involved, we are involved in industries which contribute to terrible crimes, in this case by Israel, but potentially by other regimes and states, unless this area is massively policed or indeed just abandoned completely. So yeah, those are my initial comments, but I'd be interested to hear the response of the Minister. Go raibh maith agat, Deputy Boyd Barrett. Minister, would you like to respond? Deputy Boyd Barrett, is that amendment moved? Moved. Sorry, moved, yeah. Thank you, Ciarán. I thank Deputy Boyd Barrett for his amendment, and just to focus on what the amendment is about first, right now in our country, the area I'm responsible for, our industrial emissions take up about 10% of our carbon emissions, and critically, we have a very significant task to reduce them by 35% by 2030, and obviously to get to a trajectory of carbon neutral net zero by 2050, and in that process we obviously work with very significant companies and companies in our Irish-born indigenous sector to ensure that they are reducing their carbon emissions. We put together a 300 million euro environmental aid fund, working hand in glove with so many businesses to reduce their emissions, and significantly here, what we're trying to do is to support them with consultancy in how to achieve that. In terms of the work they have to do with the digital transition, which is a significant challenge to a lot of sectors, as well as the work they have to do in relation to carbon emissions and reducing that. So if we break it down to the very smallest family business, and you look at what our LEOs do with consultancy through our climate for business toolkit, that's exactly what we're trying to replicate here, but only do it in a fashion whereby it's not embroiled in red tape, that we can quickly act in an agile fashion to support our sectors to ensure that they get the correct advice in terms of the applications they should be putting forward to reduce their carbon emissions, and indeed with the work that is ongoing now in ESG and requirements for customers and supply chains, there's a huge challenge in very significant sectors to demonstrate to the wider public and indeed their customer base that they are reducing their carbon emissions, and that's the full intention of the amendment that is here present. In relation to your wider concerns, you know it's very clear that we are of the view that first of all we want to ensure that Irish SMEs can benefit from where our own defence forces are increasing their capacity. There are a number of areas, as you be quite well aware, from where we have very exciting Irish companies operating in the space of cyberspace and space technology, in the areas of maritime awareness, and huge work that is in the challenge that we have with the infrastructure that we're going to be putting offshore, be it renewables as well as the subsea cables that we have. In relation to the work that we're doing in maritime surveillance and counter drone technology, all those areas that our defence forces, in line with the commission of the defence forces vision over the next number of years, I want to see Irish suppliers, Irish jobs, and Irish companies benefit from that investment in our own country. What we're doing here is we're changing the procedure that delivers that. There is no policy change here whatsoever. We're changing the procedure so every single time our state agencies do not have to go to cabinet for that approval, which in essence really slows down the process in their work in dealing with the challenges that are in front of them. You'll also be aware from a European perspective, the significant increase in funds through European competitive fund, which has increased by about 300 percent. There's a huge emphasis now on resilience and security and defence, and again I want to assure in non-combative ways that Irish SMEs can benefit from those very significant funds that will be enshrined in our own defence forces, that will be enshrined in technologies like we saw with the HSE, the very significant cyber attack that was carried out. I do not want to lock out Irish SMEs from building their capacity and working at the forefront of our defences in those various different technologies. So that's exactly where we're coming from. We are a neutral state. That policy has absolutely not changed. I'm a firm believer in our neutrality and always have been, and in relation to, which is not on the agenda obviously, our engagement with the state of Israel, I think this government has been recognised internationally and been at the very forefront in standing up for the citizens, the vulnerable citizens in Gaza in terms of aid, in terms of the various steps we've done through the ICJ case, to recognising the state of Palestine, to ensuring that we've stood shoulder to shoulder with the international community and calling out the genocide that has been carried on and continues to be carried on by the IDF. And we've been very clear and firmly of that view, and you can see as we're bringing forward the Occupied Territories Bill as well, which again demonstrates the progress on that. Notwithstanding that's not on the agenda, we're focusing here very clearly is allowing our SMEs, our Irish employees, our indigenous sector, benefit from investments in our defence forces that they don't have to go to overseas suppliers as they increase their resilience, as they increase their security and investment. Minister, Deputy Barrett, is the amendment being pressed? Well I want to continue the discussion. You didn't answer any of my questions, Minister. That's your opinion. Well it's not my opinion, I mean it's I think any reasonable assessment of the answer you gave me. I asked what is the extent of our engagement or the engagement of the Enterprise Ireland and the IDA with the military sector and military and defence sector? What is the extent of it? Can you give us like figures, how many companies involved in the military sector are the IDA and Enterprise Ireland backing or involved with? If for example, because Israel is on the agenda in the sense that your department, as I said, approved 20 million euro worth of dual-use exports to the IDF and the Israeli Defence Ministry in 2024, I think 12 million in 2023 at the height of a genocide. Now those are Irish companies presumably producing those dual-use technologies which are then used by a military force engaged in genocide, even according to your own government. Micheál Martin finally acknowledged there was a genocide going on. So that means stuff being produced here in Ireland was going to a military force that even our government are now acknowledging was doing a genocide. So that would be of concern and is it the case that Enterprise Ireland or IDA are supporting those companies? For example, do we know? Absolutely not. That's your question answered. There has been no policy change in relation to our export controls. In relation to companies dealing with our state agencies, there are a number of companies in space technology, in maritime technology, in drone technology that are working and can be supported through European competitive funding, which is about a fund of 409 billion that will be coming forward in the next number of years, that we want to ensure that our defence forces can work with those companies as they protect our own infrastructure. This isn't offensive work, it's work for our Irish state and they can protect our cyber, they can protect in relation to our maritime infrastructure because we as a neutral country equally have obligations in relation to protecting our country, protecting our infrastructure and protecting our citizens and particularly in the cyber space there's obviously a huge amount of opportunities. Minister, just clap. Okay, fair enough. I went through, the first question you asked was in relation to the grants. I went clearly through in clinical detail what we are using the grants for in relation to our environmental aid programme. Secondly, you asked me about the state of Israel and its interaction. I went through exactly what the government is doing there. I've also answered that there is no change in policy in relation to our export controls, which I duly pointed out is not up for discussion here and is not under the remit of this bill, which explicitly works with our state agencies in building up support for companies who are working in key strategic sectors for the Irish economy and we won't have our defence forces using overseas suppliers and ultimately where the indigenous economy won't benefit from that. So just to be clear, so the grants going from Enterprise Ireland and the IDA only go to companies engaged in military, you know, development of military stuff where it's going to Ireland? No, so the consultancy grants have nothing got to do with the defence and resilience sector. The grants are for digitalisation and sustainability, how we support companies on that journey. What you're referring to is later section of the bill. So are you supporting my amendments then? Because then you wouldn't have any problem with my amendments. I'm not supporting any of your amendments. Why not? If you let me, stop interrupting me if you don't mind. I'm happy to answer your questions for as long as it takes. Keep it professional please. So essentially the grants are specifically for digitalisation and environmental aid which we've pointed out in the bill that we have a huge challenge in bringing our economy from a 35% reduction in our carbon emissions by 2030. I pointed out from where small family companies can get consultancy to show exactly how to reduce their emissions rather than going for a big broad investment first. What is the course that we can chart to bring us about that infrastructure and expenditure and the key areas that we can deliver on it? That's what the investment here is about. In relation to supporting companies in the defence sector, very clear about our support will be in areas that are Irish companies through very significant European funding that has increased quite substantially in the areas of cyber security which we have a huge network at the moment, a huge challenge in relation to the ever-evolving hybrid threats that we're facing as a state. I want Irish companies to benefit from European funding, Irish SMEs, Irish jobs and as our defence forces tender in the open market for that, that we're not exclusively relying on overseas suppliers. I want to ensure for our maritime surveillance and our technology that's going to be deployed protecting our onshore and offshore investment. So if you look at the offshore investment right now we have five gigawatts that we're trying to develop on the east coast of energy as well as an ambition to get 37 gigawatts over the next three decades. That obviously is a very significant investment by the state that obviously will have to be protected. We have subsea infrastructure and cables that we are on the periphery of Europe and that infrastructure is centrally important to keep Europe linked to the rest of the globe and Ireland has an obligation as defence force does quite well set out in the commission and the work that we have done and the chart of that investment over the next year with a billion euro being spent this year on capital funding by the Department of Defence. I want Irish SMEs, be it in space technology, be it in cyber security, be it maritime surveillance, I want Irish SMEs benefiting from that. It's not offensive work, it's defensive work on behalf of the Irish state and that's exactly what the later sections are referring to.