Michael Fitzmaurice: Why Vets, Not Nurses, Hold the Power

How many students per year qualifies in Ireland as VETME nurses? I suppose we have 231 places available for VETME nurses. So those 231, where do they go when they come out? I suppose a lot of students when they're on the place, so because they're doing those placements, a lot of students will get employment from that. So there'll be, because they do kind of long placements. So there isn't a problem at employment is there? Say again, sorry? There's no problem at employment is there? Well I suppose, I suppose there is in that, if we're seeing 231 come out but we're seeing 124 leave, then I suppose long term retention of experienced nurses... Where are they going? Where are they going the 124? Well I suppose like either leaving the register and leaving the profession completely or going into education. Have you done any analysis of that? We don't have access to that. I've done some research into non-clinical nurses, so let's say VETME nurses who have left clinic and gone into educational roles. And again, they're leaving because the wages are higher, there's less hours. The average working week for a VETME nurse is 39, whereas a non-clinical nurse it's between 34 and 36. More flexibility, greater benefits. Now four or five hours wouldn't put you one way or the other would it? Sorry? You're saying there's four or five hours of a difference, that's why they're leaving is it? Well 39 paid working hours, you could be looking at four or five additional hours of overtime a week then on top of that as a clinical nurse. Question for you, is it the VCI that you're overarching body? Yes. And would turkeys vote for Christmas lakes? If they're deciding everything, VCI is Veterinary Council of Ireland. Yeah. So obviously VETS to them is probably going to be more important than veterinary nurses, would that be fair to say? Which is what we're calling for, like currently we only have one nurse sitting on council. Unless you have a separate body or something, you're not going to get changed, that's the reality in Ireland. I think we need to call it straight. I'll ask you a question, at the moment if I go into a general nurse for health, the amount of work that they can do, they can take bloods, they can put in the food through the veins, they can do so much different things, they're mighty. Have you looked to say do TB testing? So TB, there is some nurses that assess but we can't I suppose. Can you do it or can you not, that's what I'm asking. Not in relation to TB, so what nurses can do, the same thing. Like a general nurse can take blood from a person or can do X, Y and Z. And we can do certain acts of minor surgery as well. Are you qualified, or did you put in submissions, this went on here in this committee for a good while, the anti-parasitic legislation on that, of who can be the person that gives the prescription. Did you look to be able to do that, or what did you do? So the legislation currently... No, did you look, the legislation was gone for a few years, we all were involved in it here, did you put in submissions that you could be allowed to prescribe? No. Or was that not, like say one time ago in the local places near us there was a person who was well used to it and in the north there was what they call a trained prescriber, you'd have a higher training even than that, how is it that wasn't done? Or did you go into the department and see can you negotiate that with the department? I think the oversight is just referred to as veterinary professionals, I don't think it differentiates... Yeah, I know that, but this legislation was going on for a year or two years to cover the responsible person, and what I'm saying is, did you meet the minister, did you meet the department, did you try and see what extra help you could give, because the way it's gone at the moment, whether we want to be nice about it or not, is that you have no choice but to go to your vet now to get a prescription. But if you didn't put in a submission, how do you expect to be involved in the whole circus thing that goes on? Well legally we couldn't prescribe because that would be diagnosing. I'm not about the legislation. The responsible person's legislation, but they can only dispense, they can't prescribe. Yeah, I know that, but what I'm saying, under the new legislation which was being looked at, could there have been something got from Europe, was there any submissions done to try and facilitate more people to be able to give a prescription, which we were trying to do here. We were looking for the responsible person, but in fairness to veterinary nurses, they've gone to college for X amount of years, they have qualifications behind them, and they would be fairly well, I know that you cannot go out and do a section or whatever, but there'd be veterinary nurses, and I know some of them at the moment, and they'd be well fit to do an awful lot of the jobs. But the only thing about it is they don't get the tick box to be able to do it. And I'm just wondering what engagement you have. You can come in here and you can say this isn't right and that isn't right and the other isn't right, but have you met the department, have you met the minister, have you looked at different options in the line of giving out the medicines, have you looked at options, will the department come in with you and look and see, could you do TB testing for example, that would pull the pressure off. And I heard you referring to the West of Ireland there before, Is it that they're not places, like some of them would operate on a dog or whatever, or a cat or whatever, to do something on them, I don't know, is that what you call, what you were referring to earlier on, as a hospital thing sitting or not, I don't think it is. In most of the veterinary practice, and in fairness we get a good service, I have to say that, that would have a lot of vits that don't go for, I wouldn't have seen many veterinary nurses, why is that, is that the vit can cover everything and the veterinary nurse cannot? It's generally a lack of knowledge on what the veterinary nurse can do. As Kelly said earlier on, we have approached the veterinary council in regards to a nurse practitioner and a nurse practitioner similar to a human nurse practitioner would be able to prescribe and dispense. Yeah, but the only thing, if the legislation doesn't allow you to prescribe, if they don't allow you to do the TB test, if they don't allow you to pull a calf, well, what will you be? You'll be within where you'll have to ring the vit and say, what do I give here? You'll have to write a prescription and then you can administer it, I presume. But what I'm trying to say is, there's a lot of opportunity, I think, if there was a lot more engagement by, I think, the department and yourselves. Because the VCI... We have about two minutes per person. The VCI, in fairness, they do their job. They represent their people as the vits, right? It's veterinary nurses also. Unless we go for an over-action body to give the likes of you, are you engaged with the department? I think something needs to be done there. The representative bodies would not be the VCI. You would have Veterinary Ireland, the Irish Equine Veterinary Association, they would be the representative bodies. The VCI is a regulatory body. Who's in VCI? There'll be another opportunity in a few minutes. Deputy Kennedy, do you want to go again for two?