Victor Boyhan: Seeks 12-Month Safeguarding Framework Report

Okay, thank you Comhairleach and first I want to thank the Minister again for coming to the House and to thank his officials for being here. I suppose I'm conscious that we had the Order of Business today and the proposal was in the Order of Business that we would conclude this legislation today and that's just the political realities we live in. There is an urgency clearly on the Government to get through its programme and commitments in legislation. So, look, there wasn't any objections to the Order of Business and therefore we have to work on that basis. So, the basis is that we will conclude all of this legislation this evening. Minister, so I have one amendment and I'll speak to that amendment and the amendment seeks to ask that the Minister shall, within 12 months of the commencement of this Act, report to the House of the Oireachtas on creating a framework for child and adult safeguarding in the health and social care sector and in the context of this Bill to expand and strengthen the safeguards for children and adults to prevent the risk of abuse or harm. Now, we don't need to look back in history to know about the abuse of children or adults. We know that historically it went on in institutions, it went on in state care, it went on in private care, indeed it went on in private homes. There's not a day we don't pick up a newspaper and we hear about the tragedy and the violation of people, be they children or adults, in an area where people expect to feel safe. People expect always to feel safe in their home and they feel that the people that they place their trust, their legitimate expectation of trust and care, that they would be safe from harm and abuse. But that sadly is not the case. And I bring always that thought to my process and legislation. It is something that I'm usually committed to, I have personally been involved in, I've had personal experience of it, and I think one of the one things this organisation and this Parliament, we see the world, as I said before, from where we stand and our experiences within it. We bring that to the table. We all have different experiences, we are exposed to different sets of circumstances, and therefore we decide, and most of us, that's what politicises us, I think our experience of life politicises us to move on in politics. But I suppose I want to just say a few words without repeating myself, I'm really conscious this is going to be my only opportunity, or I've decided that this will be my only opportunity on the floor here, to speak in relation to this amendment and just to touch on some of the reasons why. Elder abuse remains widely under-recognised and under-reported and can take place in many homes, and it does, and it takes place in many forms. Many of us will have heard the complaints about hospitals and indeed nursing homes, but as I said, abuse can take place in the home. There are many forms of abuse, be they physical, emotional, sexual, and many other connotations around abuse and coercive control. Safeguarding begins by noticing and listening, particularly to older people, and responding when sometimes something does not seem quite right. I think we know that feeling about things, we can't necessarily put it into a particular sentence, but people get feelings about things, and I think when you do get feelings like that you need to check them out. Older, particularly older adults, must be supported and cared for in a way that respects their preference, their independence and their dignity. Minister, it is essential that a new regulatory framework be put in place, and I want to talk about a framework in a minute in relation to this bill, to protect home care providers as well as the service users. Everyone involved in this care package needs to be protected, and that's really important. We've had an opportunity and indeed we have an obligation to create a system that prioritises dignity, flexibility, service user and client choice, and personal safety. The statutory home support scheme commissioned to by the successive governments is clearly still an objective, and one that we're all going to try and work to collectively, and I know it isn't possible at this juncture to roll out the complete suite of what the government had anticipated, but I'm glad to see it is still an ambition of government, and I want to acknowledge that. We know that people want to stay, most people want to stay in their own homes, and where they do and where they can, we need to support them. Central to this legislation, of course, must be the service user, and Minister, I looked at your significant contribution at the committee stage in the Dáil that went into committee to discuss this bill, and you discussed that, and one of the key things that you kept emphasising was at the end of the day, it's about the service users, and their priorities, and I just want to acknowledge the very significant contribution you made during the committee, because I had a read of the proceedings, and that was clearly evident from your engagement. I think critical to the success of this legislation will be the building on home support packages. That is critically important. But packages that empower clients to choose their provider and agree flexible visiting times, improve alignment between needs and skills, and make for better use of capacity, maintaining personal autonomy is really important, as one particularly advances in years. Waiting lists for home care services have surged. I don't need to give you a lecture about that, Minister. We all know that. Data released by the HSE shows that the waiting list for home care stood at over 5,300 for the first three months of 2026. The HSE's head of the service for older people, access and integration, said that nobody is waiting for funding to be allocated for home support, but the problem is they are waiting for carers to be assigned due to shortages. I think that's a particularly key point. So it isn't the money. The money is in place, according to the HSE, and it's the shortage, and there are a number of reasons why there are shortages, and we know it's about cost, we know it's about training, we know it's more expensive for people who are carers to live maybe in cities. There's a whole range of complexities, and I know you've been involved in looking at SWAG and the recommendations there, and that's work that's progressing, so I won't go into any more detail on that. But we know that the shortage of carers is presenting problems for many hospital patients, being unable to be discharged because they're waiting for a carer to be found, and that's not a satisfactory move or chain when people are looking for acute beds. So we effectively have people in acute beds that want to go into a home care package or get home care support and can't get it, and that is a challenge. The shortage of home care support is particularly challenging in rural areas, and you'll know this as someone who represents urban and rural. It is totally unacceptable that the people around the country approved for a home care package are left languishing on waiting lists for months, and time, sadly, is not always on their side. I cannot stress the importance of day care service, and indeed many senators from all sides of this House have spoken about the importance of day care services for the elderly. It allows many to live independently in their own homes while receiving interventions and health monitoring and social engagement and interaction, and indeed nutritious meals, all very important for elderly people, particularly people who are in an isolated situation. The benefits are enormous. When even it's only two days a week, three days a week, there are day centres. That's particularly important in rural areas. So day care services provide crucial respite for families, caregivers, preventing many from other issues and challenges. The day care services and the home health work hand in hand, and that's really important. I believe that day care services and home health can, if imaginatively used, work hand in hand to allow one to age with dignity and respect, but more importantly, by choice. I want to acknowledge before I close, Minister, the significant work of the family carers across Ireland. When I reached out to them the week before last, I made contact with a former independent councillor, Richie Malloy, who is a strong advocate and works for Family Carers Ireland, and he told me about the amount of carers that are in financial hardship, social isolation, poor health themselves, having to shoulder the ever-increasing responsibilities with insufficient state support, according to a report they published recently by Carers Ireland entitled The State of Care and Caring in 2026. This report was published by the family carers Ireland, and simply having read it again today, paints a very stark picture of life of thousands of people providing unpaid care and loved ones with disabilities with chronic illness and complex needs. In conclusion, I want to go back to some of the key issues. Why am I asking for the Oireachtas to create a framework for child and adult safeguarding? And yes, I'm aware that progress has been made in terms of the child and children, and the importance, and that we need to make progress in relation to adults, and I'll push you on that in a minute, Minister. But I think it's important to make the point, because again, I picked this up from your engagement with the committee, where you indicated, and rightly so, that there was an overlap between the Department of Children and Youth and Disabilities, et cetera, and Minister Fordy's Department of Portfolio, and indeed then the health overlap. So there's an overlap here in relation to it. So what's appropriate for one must be appropriate for the other. Now, when that actually happens, and when all that's knitted together, is another day's work, and I think it's important that we make that point. But a lack of appropriate action, we need to develop this. Elder abuse, as I said, overlaps other abuses, particularly with societal groups such as people with a disability, or people who do not have full decision-making capacity. And capacity is another very important word in this space. Do people have the capacity to advocate for themselves? Who's advocating? Have they a conflict of interest in their advocacy role? Is there conflicts within families in terms of what are the priorities? And in terms of where is the client, the service user, central to all of this, and they need to be protected. Abuse can be perpetrated by family or strangers, or relationships that there may be a high expectation of trust. And I spoke about that as I opened here today, my comments that this high expectation of trust, we all are entitled to an expectation of trust. We must be kept safe, safe from harm. When I talk about harm, I'm talking about an assault, ill-treatment or neglect on an adult or indeed a child. And harm on anybody is unacceptable, and we must protect them. So we talk about issues like sexual abuse, financial abuse, harmful conduct which causes physical harm, conduct which causes psychological harm, unlawful conduct which appropriates too adversely or may affect people's property rights or their personal rights, theft, fraud, embezzlement, extortion, conduct which causes self-harm. And yes, that's slightly alarming. The conduct that causes self-harm, that people feel they've no where to turn, and they inflict self-harm. Harm arises from any action, whether by a deliberate act or an act of omission, that may cause impairment, physical, intellectual, emotional or mental health and wellbeing. So Minister, what does all that mean? I have asked and simply sought in this amendment that the Minister shall within 12 months of the commencement of this Act report to the Houses of the Oireachtas, only to report to the Houses of the Oireachtas, not today, but in 12 months, to report to the Houses of the Oireachtas on creating a framework for child and adult safeguarding in the health and social care sector, in the context of this Bill, to expand, strengthen the safeguards for children and adults to prevent the risk of abuse or harm. This Bill is one of many Bills that presents us an opportunity to be proactive, to advocate, to be vigilant. We have the opportunity. And so often there is a situation where after the event we say we got it wrong, what went wrong. We're the legislature. We are the Sianid, Sianid Eireann, the revising chamber for legislation. We're not here just to talk for the sake of talking. We're here because we believe in things. Things need to happen, they need to change. I'm not looking for a magic wand, Minister, but what I am saying, and I know the arithmetic of this House, and it's all very well to stand up and say this is the way we should be doing it, and the Minister say read from his script or whatever and say I can't do it for various reasons. And I know you have the bank of experts and advisers and policy people and AG and Parliamentary Council and policy development and all of that. So what I'm really asking, Minister, I want to thank you and I want to thank the House for having the opportunity to focus in on these key issues. This amendment has given me that. It has put this scenario, one of many, on the record of this House. And what I'm asking for you, Minister, is, because I simply do not know what your final position is on, having listened to the engagement by me and maybe others, but I'm asking that we would be proactive. We would be alert. We would commit to some form of legislation, because a framework is merely a framework. It's a very loose term. I chose that because I thought it might be less adversarial or less easy to get over the line, but I don't think that's going to be the case. But what I'm really suggesting is, and I hope that you will be in a position to say this, Minister, that we can have a roadmap, a pathway, to really strong, robust legislation that will protect people in care, be it in their home, be it in a state, public or private institution, because that we have an obligation to do, and that's a must. Thank you. Thank you, Senator. And, Senator, we have a chance to bring the floor back to you. I would like to say that we will put the floor in our mask. So, before we go any further, I would like to welcome some distinguished visitors to our visitors' gallery, the CABE Academy of Irish Dance, who are world champions from Castlenock and County Dublin, and I see that they're after bringing the World Championship Trophy in with them. You're all very welcome to be chatted here this evening. Fáilte róibhe ar fad. Anois, an tarra. Thanks very much, Cahirleach, and can I thank Senator Boyan for really, I suppose, a very comprehensive overview in terms of safeguarding. So, I suppose I'd like to address this in the context of the points that you raise. So, I suppose a number of things. I have a briefing on which I'll go through, but I would like to just maybe give structure in terms of opening. So, firstly, within the Act itself, if you read the Act, it's Section 21, but it's amendment of Section 101, as amended, and it's basically Section 101.4.f, and it says, so home support providers will be required under this new legislation, the policies to be maintained by a registered home support provider to ensure the safety and quality of the service provided, including in relation to safeguarding, medication support, infection prevention and control, risk management and quality assurance. So, there's a specific requirement under the Act itself, and under the bill here, that home support providers will have to, policies will have to be maintained, and one of those areas they'll have to cover is safeguarding. Secondly, the two elements that you raise in the context of adult safeguarding and safeguarding for children. So, you'll probably be aware, Senator, that under the Child First Act 2015, there's already safeguarding policies in place for children, and obviously the agency there is TUSLA. In terms of adult safeguarding, when I came into this role, more particularly, there's a commitment for government to publish a national policy in adult safeguarding for the health and social care sector. We published that last December, and furthermore, apart from the government approving the policy framework, which is the first of its type in this area, and it's something that, once again, I would have worked intensively with the officials on, that, in addition to that, government cabinets approved that we would produce legislation to underpin the framework. So, at the moment, we're working on a general scheme. We hope to bring that to cabinet before the end of the year, and I think that would dovetail into your 12 months period. So, in that period that you're talking about, we will expect to publish a general scheme on adult safeguarding in the health and social care sector, which really will, I suppose, come into line with the processes in line with the existing safeguarding legislation and policy for children set out in the Child First Act 2015. It will include, the policy framework itself included both legislative and non-legislative commitments that will significantly expand the existing support to protect children at risk of harm across the social care sector, and this is something, I suppose, that the structures in terms of the HSE will be responsible, but in terms of delivery of adult safeguarding, it will operate independently of the operational side of the HSE. That's something that I am very strong on, and that will be something that we will be incorporating into legislation. HICU will have the remit in terms of independent oversight and monitoring of adult safeguarding, and furthermore, with the Home Support Bill, equally independent overview as well. We held a stakeholder forum very recently on the 3rd of June to discuss and engage the implementation policy framework, the HSE Chief Social Worker who is bringing the implementation plan, which will come to the department, and it's something that I want to, and going back to the core of the point you raised, elder abuse, any form of abuse is unacceptable. Elder abuse can happen in any environment, and in the framework policy that we published last December, we've covered all aspects. Self-harm does not include that specific separate body work that the HSE is undertaking, but everything else, coercion, financial, physical, emotional, any form of abuse, sexual, any form of abuse is covered in that space. Can I take your point? I don't want to never put words in your mouth, but I think the words you were looking at was instinct. If you have an instinct for something happening, that you're all with it, I think, if I'm correct, that would be, would summarise, and I accept that. In terms of home support hours, working with the HSE, we have seen a decrease, not a huge one, but a decrease. The numbers are not going up. It's very simple. We've given additional funding to the HSE to recruit 257 additional home support workers. That's the key to bringing down the home support waiting list. We want to see them replacing people that are, there's vacant posts as well, and that's something I'm actively working with the HSE on. You made reference in terms of decision making. Obviously, we have the Assisted Abuse Capacity Bill, Decision Making Act, and we have the Decision Support Services, and it's very difficult for older people in terms of a myriad of issues, and the one thing that they have to feel is safe, and that's why, I suppose, I'm looking at very much joined up thinking. We have the Home Support Bill, which we're bringing through. That's the first step in statutory home care, but more particularly the regulated sector, but then with that as well, we have adult safeguarding legislation currently being prepared, which is underpinning what's in the framework on adult safeguarding. That will be in line with what is currently for children in terms of the Children First Act, and we expect to have that general scheme going to government cabinet by the end of this year, linking in, I think, with your 12 months. So, on the grounds, for that particular reason, and I take what you're putting forward, and the spirit you've put it forward, but I think we are progressing in that space in a very structured manner, and for that reason, I will not be seconding this amendment, but I very much take on board the sentence you've expressed, Senator Boyd, with normal eloquence. Thank you. Okay, well, thank you, Minister, for that. Your document, your little opening statement was circulated, and it effectively was a one page there. So, I'm just drawing it, it's four paragraphs, five paragraphs. So, the last paragraph says, development of this regulatory framework. So, you see the lovely word regulatory framework, the one that the framework that was in the amendment, the regulatory framework, you know, you have it in here, and you're saying development of this regulatory framework has been a key priority for the government. Oh, great, that's all very positive, and represents an integral part of the ongoing development of the statutory home care scheme. We're all up on with all of that, as committed to the problem for government. I look forward to a productive debate. Well, I think we've had the productive exchange or engagement, but I'm none the wiser from all of that, that the development of the framework is welcome, it's all a key priority. So, we're all singing off the one sheet, except that the Minister can't accept the amendment. But look, I hear what you're saying, Minister. I know you're a long time. I know you're a man of your word, and you're committed in this space. It's a word that I don't like quite using in this space. Everyone's using that word at the moment, space. But anyway, I know what you're saying, and I hear what you're saying. And am I right, Minister, in saying, just to be clear, that your commission to this general scheme and legislation will be published in due course within the next 12 months? Hopefully, that will be the timeline, and it'll set out clearly issues that we've covered here today. And also, am I right in understanding from your engagement here with me today that the Home Care Support Bill is progressing at some point? Do we have a timeline on that? So, firstly, yes, you're correct. We're looking to have a general scheme in respect of adult safeguarding for the health and social care sector toward the Cabinet for the end of the year. That's something that we're working intensively on. And the legislation itself, and with your assistance in terms of being enacted and the President signing it, there is then a lead in time process, which is a year in terms of HICWA getting ready for it. And then within a two-year period, HICWA will have a full register up and running in terms of the home support providers. And in essence, basically, after that period, home support providers will not be able to operate without being on the register. Okay. So, Minister, so we're going to have the bill coming through. That'll take 12 months. We're going to have this transitional period that you eloquently spoke of at the committee, because you were pressed by that by various members of the House. And you said, well, look, the reality is there is a transitional period. There's going to be a phasing in of the existing versus new people coming in. There's the swag. There are other sideshows going on in terms of addressing the shortage of carers and all of that. So that is a three-year time frame for it. Look, I suppose I've heard what you've said, Minister. I'm conscious that the order of business today has effectively given the approval to complete this business here today. That is out of my hands. It's out of your hands. It's not of my making, and it's not of your making. So the options are clearly very simple. We either don't accept the Minister, and we call a vote, and we all come up, run up the stairs for the same unusual exercise that's gone on for the last many years, or we grasp two hands in good faith, and we try and do something with it. So I'm opting for the latter. And I'm saying, Minister, I'm happy to work with you, as I'm sure the members in this House are. I think we do need to, if we could, tighten the time frames, but that's a matter to do with your whips and how you organise your parliamentary business, and I respect that too. But I think it's important that we do keep the focus on these matters. Clearly, the committee, the Oireachtas Committee, can, of course, revisit this at some other stage. I want to thank you for your engagement. I just want to say, and I also want to thank the Senate for the opportunity to raise these issues, because this is a public forum, and it's a very important place, and I think we are on a pathway. And I think it's important we've had this debate, and I'm not going to push this amendment on the basis that you've given the commitment that you're working away at it. I'll leave you with one ask. Please, please, keep the focus on the home care packages. To have over 5,000 people in this country waiting who want to live in their own homes by choice, who want to be empowered and supported at a vulnerable stage in their life, be they younger people with a disability or special need, or vulnerable parents worn out and exhausted trying to care for them, their loved ones, it is a very distressing situation. And no family is not touched by some experience in this area. So what I would say, Minister, is I want to thank you for your engagement. I want to thank your officials and your staff for their engagement. I hope that we can keep it on the radar, on the focus, and we can work collaboratively to advance some of the key issues that I've sought to advance here today. Thank you. Senator Boyle, can I thank you for your contribution and very much for your collaborative approach. The home support hours are a key priority for me and for government. What I want to do is to bring the numbers down. They're coming down, but not at the rate I would like. The key element here is we need to get more staff recruited within the HSE. As I said, 257, and that work is underway. I have very regular meetings with the HSE, along with my officials, specific around delivery home support. Some areas of the country are different from others, so it's not a marginous outline. But above anything else, home support will be, dare I say it, a key element in terms of the Statute of Home Care scheme. In terms of operation, we have to grow the number of people in the area. So it's a huge body of work. But once again, for me, you made reference there to the word pathway. We have a pathway, which is Home Support Providers Bill, adult safeguarding legislation in the health and social care sector, then obviously the rollout of the regulation, and then moving into the whole area of Statute of Home Care itself. But for me, it's about ensuring that we have that momentum, and with the day-to-day activity, which is about people availing home support hours, that is and continues to be an absolute priority for myself and government. Thank you.