Victor Boyhan Demands Clarity on EPA Section 63 Plans

Thank you Cathaoirleach and firstly I'd like to welcome Dr. Henry, Dr. O'Brien and Mr. Cullinan on behalf of the EPA to us today. Clearly there were many issues here, many assertions in your statement before us today. So I'm seeking two things. I'm seeking a little bit of clarity on some of your words in your written statement and I'm seeking to challenge one or two of your statements too. So if you'd like to turn to page seven, you mentioned local authorities, I think you've come in, you're clearly highly critical of the local authorities and I quote you say, local authorities need to step up to meet their legal obligations as regulatory authorities, prioritise their resources and use the ample enforcement powers of disposal etc. So you're clearly highly critical of them. But I don't quite know I don't have the sort of detail in terms of your interaction engaging with them. But I want you to park that then for a second. You then go on and just to carry on what Deputy Fitzmarris was talking about in relation to the questioning of the Office of the Planning Regulator. And I don't think we quite got the clarity of the relationship between the EPA and the Planning Regulator. And was this initiated, because there is a protocol around the Office of Planning Regulation that you should be more than familiar with. So can we be clear, did you initiate an investigation and request the Office of the Regulator to, so maybe just deal with that question. Did you, your relationship with the Office of Planning Regulation that, and was the Office of Planning Regulator contacted you or did the EPA contact the Planning Regulator? And you might be able to give some more specific details and if not, I would be suggesting to our committee at some point that we would actually write to you and seek the correspondence between you and the Office of Planning Regulation. So you might be precise and concise in your response. We did not ask for an investigation by the Office of the Planning Regulator. I can't be any clearer than that. Did the Office of Planning Regulator contact you? We have an ongoing dialogue. So we would have to look back at the correspondence. Can I ask you to look back at the correspondence? Can I ask you to brief, send a memo to the committee? Because I think that relationship and who initiated that, we need to be clear about that. Or was the Minister, did the Minister give a direction to the OPR? But I'd like clarity. So you're now committing to furnishing the committee with that detail. Is that correct? Yes, Senator. Great. Okay, let's move on then to number, the other point I want to go back on is number three, again on page seven, which is the section, you'll be fully aware of the section 93 declarations. What's your intention now? Move on. You've identified concerns. You're highly critical of the local authorities. You have powers on to this section 63 declaration. Now, are you going to exercise those powers? And if you are, when? Give me a timeline and what the import of the section, you might explain to the committee here, the import and the significance of the section 63 declarations. It's quite an involved section in terms of how we exercise our section 63 powers. So what we have done to date is that we have provided the local authorities with all the intelligence that we have and we look for their reaction to that. We weren't particularly happy with that. So we issued what we call a draft direction. And that direction was for their comment. And the direction included that they would- Sorry, can I just stop you there, Dr. Ryan? Did you get a response from all of the commentary? Did you get a response from the local authorities that you contacted in relation to that? Yes. Right. Okay, can we now move on? We don't want a history lesson. We read your report. So go back to the section 63. When are you going to proceed there with those 63 declarations? I'm not going to confirm when, Senator, because it's an enforcement issue and I need some regulatory discretion around that. Well, hang on. You're painting a very dreadful picture here. You have powers. Let's not go back to the local authorities. You're telling us the local authorities aren't stepping up to the plate. You have been empowered with these declarations. You can exercise them. Are you going to exercise them? And don't tell us here, please, that you're going to think more into it. You have suggested there are serious shortcomings with everybody by yourself. Now, tell me when you are going to proceed with the section 63 declarations, which is in your power. I'm not going to tell you specifically. I need to retain that regulatory discretion as an independent enforcement authority. Sorry, can I ask you? But I can tell you, Senator, that we are assessing all of the responses. We expect that the local authorities would step up and take the responsibilities without us issuing a formal direct declaration. And that would be the next step. And that would be a legally binding declaration. And we will use it if we need to. I'd like if you could indicate the time. Finish on this point because time has run out. But I mean, that's the important thing. You've come and you've given serious charge in relation to local authorities and other enforcement agencies. You have the power under this section 63 declaration. Today, you haven't used it. And you're not exercising all the powers that you have within your own gift as such. So I think, and this is the Oireachtas Committee. We're not some sort of sitting on the side of a bar here. This is the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food. And so therefore, I would have thought you would have been more equipped, quite frankly, coming to this meeting to be able to tell us about the section 63s. I would ask, and I'll finish on this, I would ask that you would furnish the committee with details about the process of section 63 declarations and when you intend doing something. Because you cannot, on one hand, be critical of everybody else when you haven't exercised the suite of powers and functions you have within your own office. I leave it at that. I'm not asking for a response. Thank you. Just before I go to Deputy Lawless, just one brief point that I wanted to clarify with you. You said that you would use it when you saw the need. Thank you, Chair. And they are the enforcement tools that have been provided by the Oireachtas to allow us to escalate. I have a last question. Please bear with me. You say that you would use it when you felt it was needed. What would be the threshold? What would be the trigger that you feel? What would prompt you to use it? There are two things. One is we're still assessing the responses from the local authorities. The other, we are looking at some procedural issues in terms of fair procedures and due notice. So that when we actually have to, if we do, use that very strong power, that we do it once and we do it effectively. So it's due diligence, I would say, Chair. So that's why, and no disrespect to the committee or the Senator or any of your colleagues, but we need to do this in a logical, thoughtful and stepwise fashion. Thank you. I need to move on to Deputy Lawless.