Victor Boyhan: R&D and Certification Are the Key Barriers

First I want to thank all the people who have presented to us today. We've read all your statements and submissions and there's a tremendous similarity amongst them all. It's all very, very positive. Just some questions I want to put to, particularly I want to put to JJ. I think very early on you said JJ O'Hara directly in front of me. You talked about following the science and that's clearly critically important. You also touched on the whole area of the research and development, the R&D aspect. So I want to hear a little bit about that, because I think that's important. We have to follow the science, research and development, the lack of that or how that is progressing, or what's the trajectory for research and development in terms of the product, because I think that's very important. We've heard that sort of issue. This crosses two areas, the agri sector and the construction sector. We of course here are the Agricultural Committee, but we do have a joint Oireachtas Committee on housing. And they're clearly preoccupied with the construction sector. I have been to Finland and other places where I've seen other modern methods of construction. And I think the potential here is around this area of the modern methods of production. So maybe if I just talk with you JJ for a few minutes, you might just talk on the potential around that briefly. We sort of know it, but I mean, again, following what you were saying, follow the science. And then a bit about the research and development. And finally in relation to my questions to you, the certification, because clearly that is an issue. There are enormous challenges around the certification. We need as a committee to understand them. Now that may take some time. We don't have time here today, but I would ask if people involved in this area could furnish the committee with some written additional information on the certification, because I think that seems to be a fairly tricky and a fairly challenging issue. So over to you there, Justin, if you could answer some of those questions briefly, but maybe commit to really giving us an in-depth understanding, maybe in a little memo on the certification, but you might touch on some of that now. Yeah. So look, we opened a new geological materials science lab, which funded by Enterprise Island 3.2 million last Friday. We have some of the state of the art equipment to develop the R&D in many of these aspects that we show here. It's the whole thing about, you know, each key to what we do is R&D projects, all right? The key to an R&D project is your SME company, your industry company, all right? We can look at some of the top scientists in our own output, but globally. We have 75 PhDs can work for us globally with our organisation. But the key thing is identifying the product, identifying the industry company, and us putting that science together under an R&D project. The first project was funded, it was a machine design project with Enterprise Island, but it took a huge amount of argument. It was the first project ever funded with him on it. They're quite open to looking at a lot of other projects in it. We've been showing them the different products last Friday with a full table showing the different types of products, and showing to Minister Beterberg and Minister Harkin, you know, what this could be in the industry. But every one of them needs certification, all right? You know, someone has European certification already, we can adapt it, you know, it won't take near as much time. You're probably down to six to nine months, you know, to have European certification. Any of our new products, our new thing, it'll probably take two, two and a half years. We have to look at how can we get that time scale down. The NSCI, great team, we work with them all, Dave, Martin, Dave, there's a great team in it, but they need extra help, all right? The reality of it is, there's 70 companies coming in for agreement certification, only five of them companies are modern methods of construction as agreement certification at the moment. It's taken a huge amount of time on it. We're actually, we got funded to look at a fire, National Fire Testing Centre, so we're doing, looking at the planning mission at the moment and bringing that. We need that in Thailand. We don't have a National Fire Testing Centre. Every one of these products are going to need fire testing. We have a small one in Jordan's town in Belfast, but the other, everything goes out to the BRI group in town. So when you talk about certification, you look at, you know, you look at fire testing, you look at sound, you look at acoustics. I was talking to Glenn earlier on, my background is US, like some of these hemp blocks in high-rise down around engineering rooms, where you can lightweight sound protecting off, you know, huge export markets to it there. You know, it's about that, but every one of these products need certification. And I think is, we need the support to actually bring these products forward. As I said, each of these products is talking about probably 150,000 to 250,000 to get certification. So would you accept that certification is the biggest challenge facing this sector? Not the growing it, not the harvesting, none of all of that. We clearly have people who can do all of that and willing and ready, but that is the complexity. That is the biggest, would you say that is the biggest challenge? It's the biggest, look at... But it's not unsurmountable, but it's a challenge. It's a challenge. Is it a very costly? It's a very costly thing for each company to do. I think we need to support the companies to do it, but it has to come from individually, individual SME companies to take their certification on. There are other options for certification routes. So at the moment, what we're discussing is what's conventional is a private company developing a product goes through the investment and the time cost themselves, two and a half, three years, 150,000, 200,000 euro to get a product certified for building use. So that's a key. As you say, it's not a barrier, but it is a key. You can't get in unless you have that. However, there are other ways to do this and particularly maybe at the lower technology solutions like the hemp lime mixture, et cetera, is that you can do that either nationally, create a standard and anybody who manufactures to that standard is certified. That's the way concrete blocks in Ireland, I can set up a concrete block company tomorrow. I don't need to do one test, one fire test. I just need to have my blocks manufactured to that standard and it's certified. So that's a way of opening it. Another sort of in between route is what they've done in France, the Chambre Association have effectively developed a code and anybody that manufactures and installs within that code gets certified. It's almost like a private brand, a little bit like board beer type of brand, but the government recognized that brand and the building control recognized it. So that's what they have done. So again, I can go to France tomorrow. I can start a hemp construction company. I get certified by them that I'm trained to do it. I don't need to do any fire tests. It's all been pre-done. So there's two other routes. Thank you very much. I just need to move on because I'm conscious of my time. This is my time in terms of asking a few questions. In terms of the EPA, I mean EPA carry a lot of clout about a lot of things. I would have thought this product was taking a lot of boxes in terms of things that the EPA, in terms of carbon credits, a whole load of things that the Environmental Protection Agency. Any relationship, engagement with the EPA in any of these matters? Not myself directly. I can pass it to the floor. Has anyone had engagement with the EPA? That's okay. I'll move on. Thanks. The Irish Green Building Council, what's their involvement with that organization? JJ? Yeah, of course. In fairness, the Irish Green Building Council are very much behind this product. You know what I mean? And they're always pushing the product as well. But in fairness, they're very much behind this product. Okay. Thanks. I just want to turn to Chagas for a moment. Chagas submitted a very interesting paper. And of course, you have a huge commitment in terms of farm diversification. So clearly you're behind this. You see this. We've heard about the challenges around the tillage sector. Your strategy goes out from 2025 to 2030, I think. And in terms of what more additional impetus? I mean, you're a very valued, trusted organization with very close links with the Department of Agriculture and Government. And you have a very strong remit, great credibility around that. So what extra steps are you doing to push this on? Yeah, I suppose a small part of my remit over the last number of years, and I suppose I take a special interest in it because I actually like the crop. I think from the time we were growing it at Oak Park, I just really felt passionate about the crop in terms of what could be achieved through it. And I suppose a bit frustrated in ways that there was no end market for it because we realized it can grow very well. And there's opportunities with it to replace biocomposites that can be produced from it, bioplastics. It ticks a lot of boxes for a sustainability point of view. But there is that taboo associated with the crop. And you're trying to remove that taboo. You're trying to create a greater acceptance. And so one of the things I tried to do back in 2019 and again in 2025 was run conferences in our food center in Ashtown here in Dublin. And it was really trying to, I suppose, remove that taboo, create a greater awareness within government departments. So we invited in people from Borbia and Department of Agriculture and various that they could hear from practitioners like people in this room and people who are trying to do things even on the food side. I know we're not really dwelling on the food side here today. It's more on fiber, insulation, those areas. But it's a multifunctional crop. And sometimes the debate can get dwarfed when you start talking about different areas and different things that can be produced from it. But there are low-hanging fruit areas that can be focused on like we're talking about here today. But I suppose all I can do is maybe create that awareness, create those industry links with government departments and create an awareness of what can be achieved with this crop and have fact sheets out there on it. There is the potential to have it as part of research projects in the future if it's accepted by whether it's Department of Agriculture funding or whoever else, if there's research projects that can be generated around it. There is a bit of a taboo around funding research in this area. Thanks very much. Thanks, Chair. I suppose it's not just that there's a taboo about funding research projects in this area, but there's a lack of funding generally for research in Ireland, I believe. And I suppose I'd like to make the call for greater research funding in the construction sector particularly, because there's been a new initiative to set up Construct Innovate, but it's a very small amount of funding relative to other countries, relative to other sectors in the country. And I mean, it's a multi-billion euro industry every year. We have a huge demand for housing, huge demand for building infrastructure, et cetera. We need investment in facilities to enable testing of new materials and products coming to market. We do a lot of work with DETI for our own cement and changing the concrete standards. And we're looking at doing that at the moment. But we had a meeting similar to this in House and UCD. But there was a big call. There was a claim that there was a total lack of funding facilities, or funding of facilities to test new products. And that's the major blockage in that industry. And I think I hear the exact same in this industry. There's a lack of funding of infrastructure and funding of research as well that can work alongside that. Thank you. WNUC Brown? Go ahead. Yeah, in terms of the EPA, I just wanted to mention we had a couple of research projects that were co-funded by the EPA and the Irish Research Council. And in general, in terms of plant science, I think there is an opportunity because the research in genetics of hemp is only about to get started. And I think we at UCD are actually at the moment quite at leading this research. I get invited to conferences in France and the UK and Germany, everywhere, to talk about our research. So I think it's really also an opportunity for us to keep leading this type of research and to keep spearheading new breeding initiatives and new kind of plant science-related initiatives related to hemp.