Paul Murphy demands minimum wage for apprentices

This is in relation to what plans you have to increase the take-up of craft apprenticeships. The basic point that I make, and that I'm really trying to ask a question about here, is that the number one reform that would make the most difference is at least ensuring that apprentices get the national minimum wage from the start. That is not a radical demand, I was previously on the committee, it came up from everybody that we were discussing with in terms of the apprentices themselves having to pay loads of money for tools and so on, and not even getting the minimum wage. At the very least, let's give apprentices the minimum wage. Minister? Yeah, thanks Deputy. So look, craft and construction apprenticeships, as I said to Deputy Kenney a few moments ago, I think we'll all agree are central to delivering vital infrastructure, including housing need and sustaining economic growth. And as Minister, I would prioritise investment in apprenticeship delivery, which has more than doubled since my department was established, going from £184 million in 2020 to over £415 million today in 2026 on an annual basis. And our apprenticeship system has accordingly continued to grow, overall registrations increasing by 78% from just under 5,500 five years ago to just under 10,000 today, with craft registrations in particular rising significantly in that period also. We have a programme for government target of 12,500 new registrations by 2030, two thirds in the craft and construction related areas. And I have recently secured Cabinet approval for a new action plan for apprenticeships to support further growth in the apprenticeship sector, to attract more young people into careers through apprenticeships, and to pivot people towards the apprenticeship route as an equal alternative to the CO path and the traditional higher education route, one that can lead to a very satisfying, rewarding career in many, many ways. In terms of, I suppose, the particular point you raised about the wage of an apprentice, I take the point on board that's often raised. It is significantly more than any student would receive, which is zero, because a student doesn't get paid at all. An apprentice does get paid as they progress through. It's not unique amongst occupations to receive no funding or little funding by way of payment during training. When I trained as a barrister as a devil, we weren't paid either, so it's not unique to apprentices. There are many, many professions where people go in, and at the early stages, and typically what happens is after second year, it begins to surpass the minimum wage, but at the time an apprentice is out in the economy working post-qualification, the median wage is about 915 euro within two years' qualification, which compares very favourably with alternative pathways that other students, young people might follow. So I would again stress to anyone thinking about it, it's a very attractive and rewarding career option for many that may choose to go into it. That's a bit of a hard case to make to young people who are looking at their options whenever they see that in my first year I became paid 7.67 an hour, just over half of the national minimum wage. I'm in favour of an increased student grant and so on, but the difference being that these people are working, they're creating value for their employers. It is a real obstacle. I mean, I couldn't have been Friel without the committee, that when I was on the committee, many apprentices who dropped out in the first year because they could not afford the tools and were expected to pay big upfront costs. It's the low pay along with the fees and the price of tools were creating many barriers to entry. We introduced a bill to scrap the exemption for apprentices to ensure that everyone gets a minimum wage, and I was contacted by multiple apprentices who said, look, this is not a doable, I cannot exist. These are people often with kids, many of them have kids, we heard statistics on that, many of them are in their 20s or older, they're not young people, this isn't a bit of pocket money, they deserve to get the minimum wage at the very least. I think that's fair, and I'm aware, and something that we're trying to, as a government policy, to encourage people at different life stages to enter the apprenticeship journey, so it's not just, I agree, it's not just young people anymore coming out of school, going into apprenticeships, there are people crossing over. I've met a number of apprentices, including people mid-career, mid-life stage, some of whom have families, some have commitments, so I do get that. I suppose it is true, though, that if you do take the, I suppose the alternative, the usual alternative scenario of full-time higher education course, you could have a flat with four students training together, two apprentices, two students, the apprentices are getting, as you said, seven, eight euro an hour, the students are not getting anything per hour. So I suppose if you look at the alternative pathways, apprentices are being paid something as they go through, and that does increase in line with their training, and there's a balancing point here as well, because the employer has to be incentivised to take on the apprentice, and like any trainee, when they start, they're probably costing more than they're actually giving back in terms of useful output, because it does take a while for them to become productive in their workforce, and we engage with the trade unions all the time as well, and we have a framework in place where the trade unions sit down and set rates in partnership with the employers and with the educational framework, and I suppose that is the model we follow to date. Let me quote from an apprentice who contacted me after we introduced the Bill, a first-year motor mechanic, I'm currently working a 40-hour week at 6.20 euros an hour, I'm expected to pay for my own tools, to be fair, the employer I'm with gives a tool allowance of 250 euros, but that would barely get you much. To even get into an apprenticeship in Ireland, it's a minimum requirement across most trades, you must be able to drive and hold a licence, as a first-year, I'm expected to pay the extortion of prices of insurance on top of loan repayments for the car. If we're serious, in a sense, forget for a minute, I rarely forget the issue of workers' rights and people getting less than minimum wage, if we're serious of addressing the housing crisis and getting people into apprenticeships, this is an immediate measure that can be taken that would have a significant impact in terms of people coming into the trades. The committee, the higher education produced a report in February which recommended that a minimum wage floor be introduced, which was obviously informed by all of those apprentices who were coming and saying, this is a big issue for us. Minister? As I said, there is a framework in place where the trade unions and the employers engage together on these setting rates, and of course the relevant legislation falls under the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, as opposed to my own department, because the minimum wage laws are part of the Industrial Training Act and the Labour Services Act. All apprentices are, of course, employees, and during the on-the-job phase of a craft apprenticeship, they're paid a wage by their employer, and neither Solis nor Deferis are responsible for setting those wages, the rate of pay. But in the case of craft apprenticeships, minimum rates of pay are typically determined through that collective bargaining arrangement which I mentioned, subject to the normal dispute resolution mechanisms, are often underpinned by sexual employment orders, so we have well-established mechanisms engaging in partnership with representative bodies to set these rates, and that is, I suppose, the practice that has been there for some time. So perhaps there's a conversation that has to happen across all the partners in that system. Certainly, it's beyond the remit of my own department exclusively, or even at all in some cases, but look, it's certainly, I hear the point you raise, I think it's a fair one, but it is a balancing act, and I see all the parties at the table already setting those rates and agreeing to sexual employment orders. Thank you very much.