Grace Boland Challenges RTÉ on Funding, Redundancies and Spending

All very welcome today and I'm very glad to hear the radio figures. Clearly video hasn't killed the radio star, so that's very positive. In terms of the age of misinformation, disinformation, never has trusted media sources ever been so important. And I suppose, look, we're three years into reform, but what I'm not hearing is a credible plan for RT to be able to self-sustain itself. So what does it look like? What does RTE look like? Or are you going to continually need to rely on state funding? Thank you, Deputy. Look, I think public service media, as we know, is funded both by public funding and by commercial funding in the case of RT, and that's been the case obviously for decades. We are driving commercial funding as hard as we can. But in the end, public service media, in my view and in our view, is a public good and it does require public investment because an awful lot of what we provide, and you touched on trusted news and current affairs, is not commercially attractive and it's a public service. And in my view it's a really important part of what a public service media organisation provides to society. So there is a decision for every society, which is... I suppose, Mr Backers, what's the number in 2028 that you're going to look to the state for? Well, we haven't started discussions about that. I mean, the key thing has been when we were given the multi... Two years out? Yes. Surely you have made some assessment as to what you're likely going to do? We're currently in the middle of working on a five-year plan in terms of what we need for the organisation and to deliver the rest of the strategy, you know... But is the plan, Mr Backers, that there is always going to be need for a substantial amount of funding from the state? Well, I think that is a question for... Or can RT reduce its costs? I'm not hearing the plan after three years. No, well, the plan at the moment is we will need public funding. We will need funding from either the licence fee or a similar source of public funding. But a reducing amount of public funding as you get your house in order? Well, look, there are choices to be made by the regulator and by the Oireachtas and by the government, which is we have a very wide remit to deliver, much of which actually costs quite a lot of money and makes no money commercially, such as Irish language, arts and culture, news and current affairs, investigative journalism, high-quality documentaries. None of those are cost-free and they do need some sort of public funding. Now, whether the public funding is via the current licence fee arrangement with some direct funding or whether it's via a new way of funding, that is, in the end, going to be a question for the department and for the Oireachtas and for this committee. But, yes, we will need public funding unless we drastically reduce our remit, which is not our intention. Okay, let's get into the organisation. I understand that there is another external consultation ongoing into the review of the organisation, news, production, media and divisions and other divisions. When and why were those consultants appointed? We said we would review every part of the organisation to see how it is operating, how efficiently it's operating, but also what we need to do to make it future-proofed. So when were these consultants appointed? So the news woman was appointed a few months ago and he's nearly completed his... And that hadn't been done previously, no review of the news organisation previously? There hasn't been an external review of the news organisation previously and there's currently underway a review of our operations part of the organisation. And will the final report be published? We do intend to publish a version and to give a version to staff, yes. And I suppose in terms of the procurement of a service like that, do you comply with the state rules that other state organisations fully comply to? Fully comply, yes. So I suppose generally in terms of your procurement, you know, something that we consider here is whether an element of any department or agency's procurement is non-compliant. Do you have an assessment, what is the level of the non-compliant procurement in RTE? And every agency has one, so I mean... We have a very strong procurement function, all the... But do you have a number for me? No, I don't. Do we have any non-compliant procurements? As far as... Would you be the only organisation or department to come before the committee that didn't? I don't think we do. I think we have a very strong... I'd appreciate if you wrote... We'll come back to you with that, but I'm not aware of any non-compliance. We have a very strong, probably frustrates some people in the organisation because it takes a bit of time, but we have a very strong procurement function. In terms of the optimal number of employees, what is the optimal number? Well, that depends on the remit and depends on introduction of new technology and introduction of AI and so on. So, you know, under the new direction... I suppose, Mr. Backers, I'm struggling here because after three years, I'm not hearing a proper financial operating model or plan. I'm not hearing a target number of employees. Well, sorry, with respect, Deputy, that was all published alongside our new direction strategy. So, if you went and read the new direction strategy, there's absolutely... I'm not hearing figures. I'm not hearing the number. Well, I can give you the figures that were in the new direction strategy, which is we said we would be 400 people would leave the organisation over the course of the strategy. And where are we at that? So? Well, we've had 100 left at the end of last year. Yeah, so how many availed of voluntary redundancy last year? 67 took voluntary redundancy and 30 exited through retirement or resignation and were not replaced. And when did you submit the voluntary redundancy scheme for this year to the Department of Culture and Communications? Well, we... Well, it's been a process. The first thing the department asked of us was they wanted an assessment of last year's and how it operated. And it was properly... The governance was properly carried out, which we submitted. It's July now. When did you submit it? That document or... No. When did you submit the application for 2027? June the 17th. A bit late? No, because we needed to do the assessment of last year's scheme first. And how many people is that scheme envisaging availing of redundancy? Well, we're going to try and maximise the number we can get out. What's the number? It's between 40 and 60 in the next... How are we ever going to get to 400? Well, we will over time. We're confident. We set up to 400 and we will get... Why are you doing it piecemeal, a snail's pace? Because that is the only way to do it unless you go through compulsory redundancies, which we're not prepared to do. So you're saying people aren't applying for the redundancy? No, people did apply. We had 300 applications last year, but you can't... The reason we're doing it over a period of time is because you need... Can you really add up, Mr. Backhurst? Sorry, as you change the organisation, you can't let people go until you put some content out in the independent sector. So you can't do that overnight and you can't put stuff in the independent sector until people have exited the organisation. So it has to be over a period of time as you change the organisation. So the transformation programme is becoming a permanent programme? No, it's a five-year strategy as is requested of us. Okay, let's move on to outsourcing. Outsourcing versus in-house production. Do you do a full business case comparing the in-house production costs against outsourced production costs for every single programme that is outsourced? And do you publish those business cases? We do do a business case for each programme. But as you'll be aware, public value is a question of cost, which is extremely important, but it's also a question of delivering the best quality programme for our audiences. So there are a number of factors that go into those decisions. It's not simply the cost because the value of something is not just how much we pay for it, it's what the value is to the audience as well. So the answer is for each individual, yeah, major programme that's outsourced or major area that's outsourced, we absolutely do a business case. So say, for example, Up for the Match, was there a cost-benefit analysis of... Yes, there was. And what was the result of that? How much money are you saving by outsourcing? We're not saving money. We're doing an enhanced programme live from Croke Park as opposed to a studio-based programme this year. And is that necessary? So is it actually costing more to outsource? This one is costing a little bit more, but as I said to you... I suppose Mr Packer is out of time. No, sorry. Sorry, Deputy, can I just have a chance to answer the question, please? Like, you take creative decisions, what is best for the audience? Like, Up for the Match has not changed for a number of years. We wanted... Like, it's a programme that is, you know, pretty successful. We think it could be more successful and more ambitious. So the way we've done that is to put it out for ideas to the independent sector. There was a proper process that went through, a request for ideas. We chose the very best creative idea, and that is live from Croke Park, which, you know, if you do an OB, an outside broadcast, it inevitably will add a bit of cost to it, but it will be a better programme for the audience. That's the objective. I think it would be very important, Mr Packer, that you write to this committee and give us an overall figure in terms of all of the programmes that have been outsourced and whether there is any cost saving to or to you in the outsourcing. Deputy, the overall costs are published every year by RT in our independent production unit report and they'll be available... Of outsourcing? Yes. Those are all the programmes we commission for the independent sector. So what is the cost saving? Sorry, what is the overall cost? I asked you what the cost saving is. I want to know what the cost saving is of outsourcing these programmes. Programme by programme. It's impossible to say. I mean, you commission a new drama. No, sorry, it is impossible to say. You commission a new drama. There's not a cost saving on what you're doing. When you do a cost benefit analysis, you assess for how much it costs to in-house it. We do, but it's not solely about is it a cheaper programme. We're not in the business of being cheap as chips. We're in the business of providing high quality content and increasingly... My understanding is part of outsourcing these was to achieve some cost reduction, cost efficiency. Sorry, outsourcing is coming in the legislation that we're going to be required to outsource 25% of our independent productions. So there's no cost saving to the taxpayer whatsoever? There are cost savings on some of them. There are not cost savings on all of them. It's not the only programme. And I suppose what I'm asking is I want to know what that total figure is, whether it's... Well, the total figure for independent productions last year was €47 million. What I want to know is, is it a minus or a plus to the taxpayer on the cost benefit analysis? I'll just try to explain to you. Individual projects, some are cheaper and some are more expensive. In the end, this is about weighing out how much it costs. Okay, let's move on. No, no, no, let's not move on because... No, no, no. Sorry, Mr Bacchus, we're moving on. I want to move on to transport and hospitality. In terms of limousines, is there a framework as to the use of limousines and why someone would be offered a limousine as opposed to a taxi? Yes. We wouldn't call them necessarily limousines, they're professional drivers. There is a framework, you have to have a business need for it and it has to be approved by the individual finance... So it's a documented business case? Yeah, it's within each... Yes, yeah, there's a number of categories which it's eligible for, yes. And is it... What is it like? Is it a procedure that any employee at a warranty could find so they would know whether... It's got to be signed off within the programme team, yes. You don't have a written procedure as to the use of taxis and limousines? No, but the criteria is that it is... So that's why you don't have a written procedure? Well, because it's well known as to what they can be used for or not, but there's a careful... No, but that's not good enough, Mr Bacchus, you have to have clear written procedures to avoid abuse. There is no abuse of this and it's very carefully overseen by the finance unit. But how do people know? Because each one of those has to be agreed by the senior person in the programme and ultimately agreed by finance. And do any employees of Warranty, are they ever eligible for limousines? No, not normal employees. We might take presenters out to a particular deployment where we have to send a car for them which can't be a taxi. But why a limousine over a taxi? It's not a limousine, it's a professional driver over a taxi. Well, because it would be an assignment... The cost difference is huge. It's not huge, actually. If you book a taxi and it has to wait for a few hours, it's not necessarily a huge difference in cost. We have a contract with it. You'll have seen from the documents we provided that our spend on professional drivers has gone down 50% roughly in the last three years, so there's a tight control there. We're in a crisis, Mr Backhurst. You are supposed to be tightening your belt. Yeah, we're also... So, I mean, we're not going to applaud you for that. No, no, no, but I'm just demonstrating, we are tightening our belts. And also, I would add on the fact of professional drivers, like, you know, the vast majority is for things like guests for the late, late, who might fly in, for example, they'd be hyper... And taxis aren't sufficient for them, no? No, they're not. And we're not a Timpot broadcaster, we're a professional broadcaster. If you're going to attract top talent and top guests, then you have to provide a decent service when they get here. In terms of hospitality vouchers, what are these non-taxable hospitality vouchers? I don't know what you're talking about. That employees avail of. There's about two, two and a half million non-taxable hospitality vouchers. Can anyone speak to them? Sorry, I don't know what you're asking. Well, I don't know what they are either, that's why I'm asking, Mr Backhurst. What? I don't know what you... I don't know about two and a half million hospitality vouchers, so I don't know what you're asking about. So you don't know where two and a half million has gone? There's a reference in the hospitality section to staff vouchers, is that the figure? Yes. And it's 2,059,000. OK. Well, that... Sorry? Is that from the pay award? I don't know. I'm just saying it might have been... I'm not sure, I'm not 100% sure, but that might have been from the pay award that we negotiated with the unions, that there was a staff voucher given as part of that pay award. Non-taxable vouchers issued to employees. And I suppose, what is the procedure around that? What's the framework? I mean, you can't even tell me where two and a half million is going. In terms of hospitality... Oh, I'm sorry, there was a substantial increase over 2023. It was 1.2 million in 2023, increased to 2.4 million in 2024. Yeah, well, that would have been as part of the overall pay agreement, we issued a voucher to staff, which, as you know, a lot of companies do because it's very tax efficient. Sorry, a voucher for what? It was part of the pay agreement, which is a voucher for their use as an agreement with the unions in terms of the overall pay deal. And then why is 319,000 of that down here as business? Well, some of those would be, like, staff would get hospitality vouchers to use in the RT canteen if, for example, they have guests in for a particular programme or children in for a particular programme, whatever, that they can use that to pay for food and drink inside RT. Or, for example, for guests who come in for some of the big programmes with hospitality. And this is a continuing liability, so is there a framework around the use of these vouchers? Yes, there is a framework. A written framework. Can you please provide that to the committee? Yeah, we can, yeah. In terms of Montrose, what is the plan? The plan, which we're halfway, well, we're in the middle of trying to deliver at the moment, is that we were going to downsize the Montrose to one end of the campus and try and dispose of the rest of the campus. So we're going to be in smaller premises on Montrose within the next, you know, six or seven years, hopefully. When will we see the plan? Well, we're finalising the plan. We're going to take it to board finally in the coming weeks. It's been a year and a half in progression. We've taken on property consultants and we've taken on architects to do the plan and to get it properly priced and so on. And you might update the committee afterwards? We absolutely will do, because this is going to be a significant thing for RT, because we do want to downsize, we want to reduce overheads, and that will be an appropriate thing to do as the organisation gets smaller. And at the same time, we will be looking to sell a significant amount of the campus at Montrose as well in due course, which we obviously need to get government permission to do. And we've already entered into early discussions with the Land Development Agency about that.