Paul Murphy: Triple Lock protects Irish peacekeepers

I just would also ask the question about the Senior Minister. I mean this actually came up with the Dáil Reform Committee last week. It's very peculiar that a Senior Minister is here, has answered questions on the Triple Lock previously in the same debate, and then no offence, but we have the Junior Minister answering these, which precisely prevents the continuation of the debate. I think the same thing happened previously. So hopefully the Minister then, the Junior Minister can clarify for you. You said earlier to Deputy O'Leary, the people I speak for speak to recognise that and do not like that Russia have essentially removed all of our peacekeeping troops from UNIFIL in the coming months. I'd ask the Junior Minister then to clarify on your behalf that presumably you didn't mean Russia, you meant the US and Israel, and that that is misinformation you're reading into the record. I'd also ask the Junior Minister then to clarify, why does the draft bill say principles of UN Charter rather than articles of the UN Charter? Is it because you don't want yourself to be actually bound by international law, which is very clear in the conditions, and instead just the general principles of the UN Charter? We are bound by international law, and we're bound by international law since our constitution came into force, and we continue to be bound by international law and always will, no matter what happens to this legislation. International law governs what we do as a government. Article 29 constrains us. We have to operate in accordance with the principles of Article 29 of our Irish constitution, which requires us to promote international law, friendly relations among the nations, and peace essentially. They are legal requirements, they're not simply objectives, they're legal requirements. Just to be clear, any deployment by the Irish government and the Dáil here of troops abroad has to be as part of an international force, and that can mean the UN, that can mean the EU, that can mean the OSCE or other regional organisations as well. That can mean those, and that is what I would say, what I would say is when I went to Switzerland, which is the classical neutral country that aren't even a member of the European Union, they'll never join the European Union, they're so neutral and so independent. They accept a UN mandate, an EU mandate, OSCE mandate. I understand the situation is similar in Austria, which is another neutral country. By the way, it's also similar in Germany. I can't find any other country in the world, I can't find any other country where the government has to go to the UN, and there have been problems at the UN Security Council, there have been problems. The truth is that if the triple lock continues, Irish peacekeeping comes to an end, and the facts bear that out, because we've seen already this year with Operation Irini, which of course you've now started to criticise, where our people left on that day, the mission continues, and frankly, frankly, we're the big losers in that, because our people, our defence forces, who are there ultimately of course to protect this state and these people, are losing the experience, losing the training, the superb training that they're getting, because quite frankly of the veto at the UN Security Council, and one member, UNIFIL is coming to an end at the end of the year. We will have more members of the defence forces working in office roles in Brussels than we will have on peacekeeping missions at the end of the year, because of the triple lock, because of the fact that the United Nations is not putting, because of the fact that the United Nations is not mandating any more peacekeeping missions. And that is what this legislation is addressing, that is what I believe we need to do to ensure that we continue to play our role internationally, but also crucially making sure that that incredible experience that our members of our defence forces get abroad can be then transferred and translated into an Irish experience, where I saw them in action recently protecting senior level guests coming to the opening ceremony of the European Presidency, and I do want to thank our troops for all they're doing at home and abroad. The Minister assures us that we're bound by international law, but then goes on to talk about the fact that he wants to deploy troops outside of the framework of international law. That's why you're getting rid of the triple lock. All the triple lock does is ensure that we only can send troops in line with international law. Let me quote Minister Robert Troy, Ireland's position on the use of force where there is no UN mandate or authorisation is well established and known. For fear that anyone has any doubt, let me be clear, it is wrong and it is illegal. The UN Charter is really, really clear. You can use your troops when you're being attacked, which the triple lock doesn't apply to, or when it is a UN authorised peacekeeping mission. And you want to send troops abroad outside of that framework. And the defence that, oh don't worry, we're only going to send them as part of an international force. I don't think anyone here thinks you're going to invade a country all by yourselves. But can you confirm that NATO would be a designated international force under what is, under the draft legislation to get rid of the triple lock? Minister. Just to be clear, what our troops will be doing, they will be doing peacekeeping, peace enforcement, conflict prevention. That's what the law says, not what you imagine it to be. We are bound by our constitution, we are bound by international law, and the legislation changes nothing in that regard. Ireland has been a member of Partnership for Peace for over 25 years. And we've heard the same scare stories, quite frankly, more than 25 years ago about Ireland joining Partnership for Peace, but people don't seem to realise that we're in it. Our troops, and indeed some members who sit opposite visited our troops in Kosovo, for example, where they're engaged in incredibly important peacekeeping work in Kosovo, which is a NATO operation operating under a UN mandate. Our troops have been there for more than 20 years, are doing an excellent job and we're very, very proud of the work they do in what is often very, very dangerous circumstances. But let's be 100% clear, our troops will only ever do peacekeeping, peace enforcement or conflict prevention in accordance with the principles of the UN Charter, and of course, like every action of this government, in accordance with the constitution, we cannot go beyond our constitution, beyond Article 29. We want to continue the role that we have played, and that role, unfortunately, is coming to an end for the vast majority of our troops. The numbers of peacekeepers will reduce, Irish peacekeepers will reduce by about 90% because of the Triple Lock requirements and because of the inaction of the United Nations. And while Deputy Murphy says that he doesn't believe that Irish troops will be sent out to war, et cetera, and you're absolutely correct when you say that, you're absolutely correct, but your colleagues there to, I don't know whether they're left or right at this stage in Sinn Féin, I'm not sure they know themselves where they sit in the pecking order, but they keep saying, and I quote directly, that we're sending our sons and daughters out to war, and that type of language I think people now see is completely exposed, they don't believe it themselves, they know it's not true, they are making it up. And as for our people who are working in Brussels, they're doing incredibly important roles in terms of cyber security, in terms of all of the additions, in terms of looking after the maritime domain, we're very, very proud of our people who work in the EU institutions, in other international institutions, and some work, and some, we are not members of NATO, I hate to break the news, we are not members of NATO, we are not members of NATO, we are part of... We are part of... Will members please, sorry, Minister. We are part of... Minister Bourne, would members please... Minister Bourne... Minister Bourne, if you don't mind, would members please allow the Minister to finish and stop quoting in on him, so that we can do our business properly. So I'm going to conclude, Minister. I would invite members opposite, as some members did take the invitation to go to visit some of our peacekeeping missions, and I'm very glad they did, but I invite you to meet some of our military personnel abroad in the various institutions that they work with, whether it's the EU, UN, or indeed Partnership for Peace, meet them, see the work that they do, you'll come out of that room extremely proud of what our Irish Defence Force personnel are doing, not just on peacekeeping roles, but also in international organisations. Thank you.