Eoghan Kenny challenges IFI over uninsured vehicles, summons delay

I want to thank most especially the CNAG for what is an absolutely comprehensive report, which I do appreciate. Can I firstly ask a yes or no question? Is the role of the Deputy CEO set out in statute? Yes. And was there a previous Deputy CEO? There were three previous Deputy CEOs on a six-month basis. There was a recruitment undertaken in September for a three-year Deputy CEO, as the Board wanted to ensure that there was a bit of longevity to it, consistency. Okay, very good. Thank you. I want to focus in on the uninsured vehicles. Following a road traffic accident in August 2021, the IFI discovered that 15 hired vehicles, including the vehicle involved in the accident, had been uninsured for a period. All the uninsured vehicles had been hired between the 1st of June and 27th of July 2021. The IFI subsequently changed its insurance arrangements so that its vehicles no longer have to be insured on an individual basis. Obviously, with the vehicle that was involved in the crash in Donegal, there would have been, on Garda Siakana would have been involved. I want to ask the question, and I think it is yes or no again, was there any false documentation provided on Garda Siakana in relation to this? We did not knowingly present any, but the insurance certificate that was presented was not a valid insurance certificate. So why on the 6th of July 2023 did the ex-CEO Francis O'Donnell say at the Public Accounts Committee that he knew on the day of the accident? I do not have an answer for that, Deputy, but what I can tell you is we have a comprehensive timeline of the events and when we were made aware by our insurers that they were not accepting liability. When were you made aware by the insurance? I will pass to the Field Service Manager Michael Cusick to give you that update. Deputy Kenny, we were made aware of this in mid-November of that year. Okay, and you have a 6-month legal obligation to make the Garda Siakana and the person who was in the acts of the staff member of yours aware of this. You did not? I am not aware of that statutory obligation. Well, you did not make the Garda Siakana aware? We did not engage with the Garda Siakana on that, no. Why? I am not aware that we had the obligation you referred to. So you allowed a staff member to receive a summons from Garda Siakana in relation to no insurance, even though you were acutely aware of the fact that the vehicle itself was not insured? My understanding is that the employee may have received a summons but not at the time when we became aware of the event as being uninsured. Can you go into that in further detail, sorry? So, the insurers, while we notified the insurers of the incident on the day of the incident in August, it was in mid-November when they came back to IFI and confirmed that there was a declanature of the liability on the policy. Were you employed by the IFI at that stage? Yes. So why did the ex-CEO, Francis O'Donnell, at the previous Public Accounts Committee, inform the committee, inform a colleague, Deputy Alan Dillon at the time, now Minister, that he knew on the day of the accident that the cars were uninsured? I can't detail maybe why he was expressing that opinion. He may have misunderstood. That's not an opinion, it was a fact. The car was uninsured. The fact that the car was uninsured became aware, or became a fact to IFI in November, in mid-November of 2021. So there was engagement with the insurers? No, that's incorrect. Francis O'Donnell, who was the ex-CEO, made the committee aware that he knew on the day of the accident, officially, official documentation was provided to the IFI on the 16th of November that the car was uninsured. But Francis O'Donnell, who was the ex-CEO now, informed the committee on the 6th of July, 2023, that the car was uninsured. So he knew on the day of the accident... I think, I cannot second guess his thought process at that time, but what I can say is, he may have confused the declaration of the vehicle with whether it was insured or not. So, on the 16th of November 2021, when you received the official documentation from the insurers, or from the insurers itself, why didn't you produce that town guard of Siakana? We weren't aware that we had a legal obligation to do so. Of course you had a legal obligation to do so. You allowed a staff member of yours to receive a summons. No mention of the IFI on the summons. That's a fact. I'm not aware of the detail of the summons, Deputy, but I'm not sure it's to do with insurance. It is. It is. I've never had sight of that. Of course it's to do with insurance. Yeah, I happen to have sight of it. On the 16th of November 2021, official communication was given to the IFI that the car was uninsured. Yes. You allowed a staff member of yours to receive a summons from Garda Siakana and you did not make the staff member aware of that until October 2022, a year after the accident, nearly a year after you received the official documentation. You allowed him to receive that summons, no mention of the IFI on the summons because he was the driver of the car. So you waited a year to inform a staff member of yours that the car was uninsured and you never told on Garda Siakana. So for clarification, Deputy, I'm not aware of that summons. I don't know if anybody in the organisation is. Okay. Are you not aware of the fact that former minister Eamon Ryan had an external investigation into this? And that was provided, those results were provided at the beginning of 2025. Those findings were provided to the chair at the board of the IFI at the beginning of 2025 this year. I'm assuming you're speaking to a protected disclosure, which wouldn't be something that we would have detail of. But the findings of the external investigation that Eamon Ryan took, that Eamon Ryan investigated, those findings were issued to the board of the IFI at the beginning of 2025. I can confirm, Deputy, I've had no sight of that investigation or the findings from it. No. You've had no sight of findings that the Department commissioned an external investigation, you as the Deputy CEO, the head now of the IFI, have had no sight of the findings from that report? Correct. Why is that? I don't, I can't answer that question, Deputy. I'm not aware of why it hasn't been provided to the Executive. But, so, that's as much information on that element that I can give you. That, that to me doesn't make any sense. An external investigation commissioned by the former Minister Eamon Ryan in relation to information that he had received in relation to false documentation provided on Garda Síochána in relation to an uninsured vehicle. Those findings were produced to the Guarda Commissioner and to the board of the IFI at the beginning of 2025. And you now, as the head of the IFI, are unaware, you are unaware of those findings. I haven't seen those findings, Deputy, no. That is unbelievable. Like, the fact of the matter here, we have, you allowed, not you personally, the IFI allowed a staff member to receive a summons in relation to an uninsured vehicle. They received confirmation, official confirmation, on 16 November 2021, that the car was uninsured, despite Francis O'Donnell, former Chair, notifying the Public Accounts Committee on 6 July 2023 that he knew on the day of the accident the vehicle was uninsured. The member of staff received a summons after the 16 November 2021. The fact of the matter, you did not, the IFI did not produce that documentation to an Garda Síochána or to the staff member, and now we are saying, I didn't understand there was a legal obligation. Of course there's a legal obligation. False documentation was provided to your staff member, who then in turn provided it to an Garda Síochána, and what we ultimately have now is a staff member of Inland Fisheries Ireland being absolutely, what I would believe, reading between the lines, thrown under the bus for this. So, Deputy, I can clarify that, as far as we are aware, the summons was not for no insurance? No, you're wrong. There were two summons. One of them is still before the courts, and that's in relation to dangerous driving. So I won't discuss that before the courts. The second one is in relation to the uninsured vehicle, where there's no mention of the IFI. The mention is in relation to the staff member himself. Well, what I will say to you there, Deputy, is that we will follow that up. That external investigation, where the findings were given to the board of the IFI, it speaks wonders to me. And it really, really showcases the culture within IFI that they have not brought that to your attention. That they are not following up on an external investigation commissioned by the Minister. Those results and findings would have been given to you now by the new Minister. And the fact of the matter is that those findings now are on the desk of the Garda Commissioner. At the same time, the ex-CEO resigned as soon as those findings were given. And I won't read between the lines, because I don't want to make any allegations. But I am certain, and I would have expected an answer on this today, that within those findings there is evidence of this staff member being absolutely thrown under the bus by the IFI. Well, Deputy, I can absolutely guarantee that that was not the case. The IFI engaged with the staff member very proactively. No, no, you cannot say it was not the case. No, no, you can't, because it was the case. The IFI were informed officially, on the 16th November 2021, that the car was uninsured. And chose not, not to inform that member of staff, or on Garda Siakana, and allowed that staff member to receive two summonses. One for dangerous driving, which is before the court, so I won't mention it again. And the second one, for the uninsured vehicle. And you chose, a year later, to inform that staff member. That's a matter of fact. I'll take that in two parts, Deputy. The first part is, I expect, and I could be wrong with this, that the investigation undertaken by the department was a PD. So that's not something that IFI would be made aware of. The second part of it, I will go and look at the file. I will try and get as much information as I can. What I want you to do is go back to the board and say I'm the head of the IFI. Why wasn't I informed at the start of this year that findings from the external investigation were produced by the department? That's what I would say. If you want to create a culture of proper governance, you need to be leading this organisation properly. What I certainly believe, because I know from experience on this, and you know I know from experience, because I'm a mallow man and I know about the revelations that are ongoing within the IFI. This needs to be absolutely built up once again from the ground up. Because the IFI to me is an absolutely organisation that is distrusted by the public. And I'll have a second opportunity to come in hopefully. Thanks Deputy Kenny. Theあと. Yeah.