Danny Healy-Rae warns of TB surge, faults badger vaccination policy

I want to welcome the group here and thank them for being here and trying to help us with the different problems that we have. And I suppose one of the biggest problems that we have in the country at the present time is the spread of TB. And I think we may, from what I'm hearing, is that we have probably more of it in Kerry and to spreading fiercely at a desperate rate in our county. And one thing I have learned that over the last two years, certain areas in our county were deemed to be for vaccination only with badgers. That the badgers were already to be vaccinated. And in other areas, the badgers were to be called. But a lot of Kerry was under this situation for the last two years, up until September, we believe. Had he any role in deciding, have he any role in deciding which areas are to be, the badgers are to be vaccinated or which areas are the badgers to be called? Did he have any role in that? Yes, of course. So the badger vaccinated wildlife control program covers the whole country. And in certain areas, badgers which are caught are removed, they're called. In other areas, they're vaccinated. And of course, there's a lot of them are tested before they're vaccinated. And if they test positive for TB, they're called. If within those badger vaccination areas, there is an outbreak of TB in cattle attributed to badgers, the badgers in that area will be called. Even though it's a vaccination area, they can still be called within that area. And of course, you'll be aware, I know, from previous TB-specific hearings that this committee has had about the use of the test vaccination release program where badgers are tested, they're captured, tested for TB. And if they're positive, they're removed, and if they're negative, they're vaccinated. Can I just be just very clear about this now, because what happened in Kerry up until last September, going back for two years, was there was a reason Kerry deemed for vaccination. They were not tested. I know that. They were not tested. And they were vaccinated. And that's where the problem lay, because they're in most point in vaccinating badgers if they already have TB. So now, since September, we're after voicing up, and they're being called, and they're being tested as well. But, I mean, is that, are he involved directly with that in selecting the areas that are to be vaccinated? Are there any areas that are to be just culled? Well, yeah, the Department of Agriculture is. Yeah, so it's, I mean, the program is within the TB eradication program. It's obviously run by the Department of Agriculture and administered by it, both cattle, wildlife, all those aspects of it. So the, I think, you know, the, there's criteria whereby certain areas are deemed badger culling as the default. I know there's where it's badger vaccination. But, again, just to go back to that point, just because an area is for badger vaccination doesn't mean there's no culling in that area. Badgers will still be culled, if necessary, in that area. And it's important to emphasize that badgers are only culled in any areas where they're linked to a breakdown in cattle attributed to badgers, because, of course, there are protected species and there are licensing requirements in place, and we comply with that for the removal of the badgers. And, you know, I think that's what happens, that if there's an area for badger vaccination, you can still have culling where necessary. So if there's a breakdown attributed to badgers in that area, under license, the removal is going to take place. That's, Chairman, that's why I'm raising this here today. It's very serious. Many fellows are afraid they're going to lose their livelihood. They have been cleaned out. There have been two-thirds of their heads have been taken. And I think that this is directly as a result that we had two years in certain parts of Kerry that there was no culling, just vaccination. And that, he'd have to be more on your game with that as far as farmers and livelihoods and their bloody heads as well. There's a man that had 66 animals and he'd go out in his yard now every morning. He'd have no one. And he said, I don't think I'll be able to stick it. And we must be more careful with this to people's livelihoods, to their lives. And also, there's another man. He's after going down with two-thirds of his head as well. And he's had people come to him of late shooting the deer. And they're found near with TB. Nevertheless, they've taken up the cock to the laboratory. And they won't get an answer for eight weeks. How is that taking so long? That's the kinds of questions that we need to get answers for. Why is that going to take eight weeks? So perhaps I'll answer the lab question first and then the broader question because the lab one is a straightforward technical question. So TB is a slow-growing bacteria. So it can, unlike, say, E. coli or Salmonella, which can grow in two or three days, Mycobacterium bovis takes eight to ten weeks to grow. It's just a slow-growing bacteria. It grows slowly in infected animals and on egg or plates. So that's how long it can take to grow it. Whereas if that was a sample for Salmonella or E. coli, you would expect a result in three days. So that's just a straightforward technical answer to that. On the broader question, look, you know, the impact of TB on infected farmers is dreadful. There's a huge human cost to it. We're acutely aware of that. And you'll be aware that, of course, there was a new TB action plan launched in September of this year with five actions and 30 sub-actions under it. And that's recognising the need to do more on TB. And, of course, TB is spread by the movement of infected cattle bought into herds, which may be undetected. Can I just finish my point, Deputy? And look at that old trap there and I'm no blame to you. It's an important point now. I might just say that the way TB is spread is by the movement of infected cattle, by residual infection within herds where it may reoccur years later, and by wildlife. And it's important to address all three of those routes. And that's what the TB action plan is doing. And you'll see the TB levels have decreased from a peak of, unfortunately, 6.43% in the beginning of July last year down to 5.68% last week. So there's been an 11% decrease in TB levels in the last six months. That's still far too high. It's still far too high and far too many people are affected. But it does show that the actions being taken place are starting to have an impact, and it's important to build on it, both in terms of wildlife, as you've highlighted, in terms of the risk of buying in infected cattle and making sure people are aware of the TB history of herds, and also of residual infection. Looking at all those ways, because, of course, we know there's not one magic bullet with TB. There's a number of things that need to be done, as you've highlighted yourself. But it's a hugely impactful disease on the farmers. You see, when a farmer goes down in the blood test, and there's 10, 20, or 15, or whatever, and then those cattle are not, won't be, what's the word, the blood test, and then the, what's the word, the skin, the blood. Yes, lesions, then. But the farmer asks for that test to be done on the cattle that have gone down, and they don't ever get, that's never done for them. And the other thing that's very serious as well, when they do go down, there seems to be too much of a delay in leaving the infected animals inside with the ones that hadn't gone down. And I'm asking that that be sped up as well. Thanks, Debbie. Well, on the final point, I'll be really quick. It's an important point. It's really important when cattle go down that they're separated from other cattle, so the scenario you outlined shouldn't happen, because we're very clear with farmers that, as difficult as it is, if you have reactors while you're waiting for them to be removed, they do need to be separated and not kept with the other uninfected cattle. Reactor removals, there's a process there which we work through. Sometimes there are delays because animals may be medicated or there may be logistical difficulties. Generally, it's a smooth process, but occasionally there can be specific difficulties, and they're very difficult for the people affected. On the question you raise of lesions, it's important to recognize TB. TB, it's a bacteria. It's a tiny microscopic bacteria. It's only when disease progresses that you get this essentially rotted flesh in the lungs or the back of the throat that's grossly visible. They're golf ball-sized. You can see them with your eye. But just because when an animal tests positive for TB, you don't see these golf ball-sized rotted lesions doesn't mean it's not infected. I mean, you can't see the bacteria on somebody's hand, and yet, unless you've sterilized your hands, you know they're there. So it is important to recognize that just because animals which test positive for TB don't all have this essentially... When we say lesions, what we basically mean is rotting, diseased flesh in their lungs. That's only towards the end, and it's the same in people. You or I could be infected, God forbid, with TB and not necessarily be diseased and sick for quite a while. And that is a source of communication issue, and that's why it's really important we work on our communications. Because, you know, when people are stressed and upset, they can unintentionally get the message, your reactors didn't have lesions. That doesn't mean your reactors weren't infected. It means your reactors were identified before they progressed to that diseased state. And we all know, you know, one can be infected with a virus or a bacteria. That doesn't mean that on that day you have, you know, essentially when we say lesions, it's a polite way of saying rotted flesh full of bacteria. They're about the size of a golf ball. You can see it when it's advanced. But just because you don't see a golf ball-sized lump of rotting flesh in the lung does not mean that animal is not infected with TB. It is. People should have faith in the test to pull out the positives. It does work for pulling out the positives at a very high degree of confidence. We know that. But it's been a communication issue going back decades. And I know myself, people say, well, I had three reactors. It turned out none of them had TB because it's a miscommunication. And I think that's, in our new strategy, we recognise we need to be much more clear with people in an incredibly stressful time in their lives. I mean, the impact of TB, I often think people outside our area don't understand just how severe it is on farmers.