Michael Fitzmaurice Questions Plastics Tonnage and Recycling Costs

Thank you, Chair, and thanks for coming in. I will do quickfire questions. To Ms Keeley, you are reviewing at the moment about renewing a licence. I presume you know off the top of your head the amount of plastic that is lying in yards around the country. What tonnage is it? It is a moving target, if you like, and it is monitored by the enforcement. It is moving, most of the plastic is gathered now, so let us be honest, what is the figures before you give out a licence is around Ireland at the moment in all the different years. Well, I defer to the scheme for that. Sorry, you are the department, you the give out licences, I am asking you what tonnage has the department, because obviously you would have an independent assessor going around checking that up, so what is it? We are not deciding the licence today. We are not deciding the licence today. I know that, I asked, what is the tonnage today? Obviously you have an up-to-date account of it. The last figures I have, I can give you. At the end of September, we were advised that there was approximately 24,440 tonnes of farm plastic stored at contractors' yards. Okay, and is that advised by somebody else, or do you have your own independent person that looks? In the first instance, the IFFPG gives us information. I understand that, but do you have your own independent assessor? The waste enforcement regulatory lead authorities, regional lead authorities, the local authority enforcement body, they verify on a monthly basis. So they have a person that goes out to each yard and they know the accurate tonnage, they have a QS that is able to assess it, is that right? They go out if they need to go out. So are those figures available to this committee, where each person went out to different yards and assess the tonnage? We can get that kind of information if you like. Okay, thank you. At the moment, I am aware that there is an investigation from Europe. Are you aware of that into plastics in Ireland? We are aware of that, but we are not party to it. Okay, and have you to do any correspondence on that? Not, no, not now. I don't think we have either. We haven't provided any input into it. Right, so that's basically that. There's 24,000 tons around the country going by what you're seeing. To IFFPG, where does most of your plastic go at the moment? Our plastic is going to a combination of Irish facilities and European facilities. What is the European facility? I'm sorry? Is that CEDA in Europe? CEDA, we are actually in the process of... And you are aware that CEDA is now closed, is it, or closing? They are in the process of relocating to another facility elsewhere, that's right. They are relocating at the moment. Would that cause a problem? We would prefer if they were open, but we can manage it. We have enough recycling capacity elsewhere, I should say. What percentage is recycled in Ireland in tonnage? 50-50. So around last year, 50%. What's 50%? Give me tonnage. 20,000 tons. So we recycled 40,000 tons last year and a half was recycled in Ireland. 40,000 tons was recycled altogether, is it, Liam? Correct, yeah. And 20,000 that have gone to in Ireland? To Irish. And some of those plants that went to Ireland, there's one plant at the moment that had 4,000 tons of a license, but it now looked for 20,000 tons of a license last January, and ye'd have sent plastic to it since, is my understanding, but they were refused the license. Does that worry ye? I'm not aware of any such action. We're supplying plastic just to permitted facilities, and the facilities that we're supplying to have permits at this time and point. Say, for running this business, obviously, going by the figures that I'm looking at, is it 20,000 tons? What do ye get paid for by the importers every year? Well, we charge companies that put plastic on the market in the first-end system. How many tons comes in that ye get paid for? It varies depending on weather, but 20,000, 22,000 tons, something in that region. 22,000 tons, okay. So then when it's going out, it's obviously twice as heavy? Correct, yes. So that's 40,000 tons. So you get 286 for the 22,000 tons, and you get 120 for the 40,000 tons, is that right? Yes, that's right. So a tonne is costing roughly, what I'd be writing in saying, 286, 386, 486, around 500 euro a tonne? You can add up the figures, you can see what's costing at the moment. It's costing the 286 plus the 120 euros per tonne to recycle what we're recycling. Well, you'll have twice as much tonnage then going out, won't you? You'll have twice as much tonnage, exactly. So the 120 is 240, really? Yeah. So 240 and 286 would be 526 euro a tonne, it's costing the farmers. The farmers are paying this. Ultimately, yes. And it was 5 euro a tonne, or 5 euro a roll is what we used to put it down as. It's actually costing, I think, something like 11 or 12 euro a roll now, if you add that, when you double it. Excluding that around 740, 750 per tonne. That's when it comes in, but when it goes out as well? Well, that is the price, excluding that for the farmer when they buy the product. Yeah, but I'm talking about when they get rid of it as well, it's costing about 12 euro a roll when it goes out as well. Well, that is the price, excluding that for the farmer when they buy the product. Yeah, but I'm talking about when they get rid of it as well, it's costing about 12 euro a roll when you add it up. It could well be. Maybe more, maybe 14. In relation to, say, you get forward paid from the different companies, is it this time of year you get paid? Well, we're paid from pretty much around May onwards. From May onwards, by the way? Yeah, typically. And, say, for the amount of tonneage that's around the country, what sort of financial, say, lump have ye in the kitty? If there's 24,000 tonne, are ye paid now for next year's, for the import part of it? No, next year when the product goes on the market, we'll get the money for next year. Okay. But we're in a very good financial position at the moment, and we're well capable of covering the recycling cost of everything that we have in storage. Right, and what's that? At the moment, in storage? Is that what you're asking? No, I'm asking in financial position, what sort of backup have ye in financial? Well, if you were to look at our reserve, which is total assets minus liabilities, we probably… I'm talking about cash, because cash you need to get rid of plastic. Yeah, we would have at the moment, not far off, 3 million. Right, and going by what I'm looking at there, that's 24,000 tonnes around the country, that'd be about €125 a tonne. That won't get rid of plastic at the moment, will it? It would, but we're going to get more money coming through in the new year as well. So if it gets rid of that, why is the farmer paying three times more? If €125 gets rid of the plastic, if you're saying it will, 3 million will, at 24,000 tonnes, that's working out roughly, off the top of my head, €125 a tonne. Why is the farmers at the moment paying €540 a tonne? Well, maybe you didn't get a chance to look at our audited accounts, which are up on our website, but you'll see the amount of money that we need, that we bring in, and you'll see what we spend. And at the moment, we're generating a surplus, and we feel very comfortable with enough money. But could you square that circle for me? I'm trying to… You're saying you can get rid of the plastic at the moment at €125 a tonne. This is what you're saying, yes? No, you're saying you have 3 million in your account, or whatever, 3 point whatever million, right? And at the moment, it has been stated that there's 24,440 tonnes around Ireland. So going by that, if we were to get rid of every bit of that, you were saying that you're financially solvent, and going by that, 24, and I'm just doing the figures up roofing my head, it's about €125 a tonne to get rid of every bit of that if you have 3 million in your account. So that's what you were saying you can get rid of it for. But I'm saying that a farmer at the moment, between what the pay is coming in and what they're paying going out, is paying €540. So where is the discrepancy then, that either you have a heap of money in the bank, or is there some link missing somewhere? There's no discrepancy and there's no link missing. If you look at our accounts for last year, you will see that. I'm not questioning the figures, if you understand me, of what you're after seeing. Well, I can only speak to you in aggregate terms. At the end of this year, we will have collected and recycled in the region of 40,000 tonnes, and we'll expect to have still €2.5 million, €3 million in the bank, and more money will be coming in in the new year. By the end of this year, we'd expect to have no more than maybe 14,000 or 15,000 tonnes in the yards. If there's a problem with CEDA in Holland, which my understanding from everything I've read is, that's 20,000 tonnes that's in a bit of jeopardy at the moment, is it? Well, we weren't quite sending them that much, but we are working hard at the moment to put in place notifications to supply to other recyclers in Europe, and we expect some of those notifications to come true quite shortly. And indeed, when CEDA relocate to another location, we will also supply to them at that new location. And in relation to, say, to the department, obviously you send it to different plants in Ireland. Would that be fair to say? Yes. How many? At the moment, three. Right. And they're recycling plants? Yes. And if there was a problem, does the department watch where it's going? And if there was a problem with planning, do they be concerned? Well, if we're notified by the enforcement authorities and the local authorities or the EPA, of course, that would be a matter of concern. If you're notified? Yes. And in relation to the contracts being given out, say, are the department open to different operators putting in a proposal in smaller scale around the country or what's the story with that? Yes. If producers of the plastics who put the products on the market come forward with the proposal, we'll look at it, of course. But hold on. You said the producers of the plastics, in fairness, with all due respect, they don't produce plastic. They actually look after it, they gather it. The producers are the crowds that make it and the crowds that import it. So is that who you're saying has to make an application? The people who place the plastic on the market in Ireland, whether they produce it or whether they retail it here as the first people. And is that closed to just them? Like, with due respect to IFFPG, they don't place the plastic on the market in Ireland. Is there different rules for different folks? No. The members of the IFFPG, correct me if I'm wrong, are producers of plastic. So that's the crowds that what IFFPG are seeing is that the importers are members of IFFPG. Okay, that's grand. Thank you.