Michael Fitzmaurice questions Renewer, nutrient rules and river myths

Dara, one of the cleanest rivers in Ireland, just to know, is Ireland's River. About tin diggers cleaned it about 12 to 14 years ago, and it's one of the best rivers in Ireland. So anyone that goes talking rubbish about cleaning rivers with the, you know, things won't come back. Rivers were cleaned for years, and all the different things came back in them. So, like, this myth has to be got rid of, because if you don't flow water, you're going to have problems, and you're going to have, basically, backlogs. That's the first thing. Bill, in relation to the derogation, the feeling is, and what we're hearing is, that there's a fair possibility that it won't stop at Christmas. That'll be a two-year, I understand what you're facing in the Habitats Directive side of it. Probably take four or five years to do what you'd have to do, going by what they're looking for. If that comes, what will be the strings to it, in your opinion, with what you're dealing with? And can you explain to me, there's a change in Europe at the moment, and first of all, I don't understand it, so you'll know it. I think it's re-newer, it's manure redone. Is that given a scope of something? Is that that we're not counting the slurry in the tank now, or what is it? The third thing is, a few years ago, the year-old cattle have been changed, and the heifer came down to, like, 55, and a bull went up to 60. What was that based on? And the fourth thing is, on nitrates, nitrates, everyone's on about it. There's no one talking about phosphates at all, where the west of Ireland, because of sewage treatment plants bellowing out stuff into water, is that you cannot distinguish between human sewage for phosphorus, or cattle sewage, or cattle slurry. And the west of Ireland is down as an area, say, high in phosphorus, and farmers are being crippled for a different reason, that the EPA aren't in tackling, and Irish water aren't in tackling. And why, or how, can we separate that and get the accurate figures? So the first thing, in terms of dredging, just to deal with that. Look, Deputy, that's really not of interest to us. We'll just express a response here in relation to, I suppose, habitats, but let's call a spade a spade. Principally, the assessment of habitats compliance here will revolve around that issue of nutrient load, not in terms of dredging, et cetera. It's nutrient load that's controlled under Nitrates Action Programme. That's what we will be assessing in terms of compliance with habitats. What is manure? Effectively, under the Nitrates Directive, you have a limit in terms of the organic manure that is applied to land. Not present, because every big farmer or every large intensive unit can have a lot more nitrate than 170. It's the amount of manure applied to land. And under manure, which was recently positively voted, it will allow where nutrient from animal manures have been converted effectively into a chemical equivalent, and not countered. So I've got to explain, but look, about 10 years ago, I was on a plant, for example, in Holland, where you had a situation where slurries were going in the front end. They were divided into three various components. One is a solid fraction that was going into an anaerobic digestion plant. Two was the liquid fraction, which was then going through a process called reverse admosis, to take the nitrate out of it, creating a liquor, which was a fertiliser, and water. The water was basically allowed back into the streams and ditches. So Renewer facilitates that conversion of organic manure into a processed fertiliser, and will not be counted against the 170. Will it help us? Explain to me if you're... It doesn't really help us. If you have a hundred cows this minute, and Renewer is coming in, how does it help the ordinary farmer, or does it? There is... We are not at that level of processing in Ireland that I would suggest Renewer is going to be of any great advantage to us. Yes, there is opportunities in terms of the progression of that technology, the development of anaerobic digestion, and consequent processing, further processing, which I understand has to apply. In terms of the changes that were brought in, why were they brought in, basically all the Nitrates Action Programme specifies technical calculations that are done, such as the excretion level, for every type of animal that you can think of, whether it's ducks, geese, sheep, cattle, livestock, horses, etc. And the excretion data for calves up to 90 days of age was recalculated, as was the one- to two-year-old category. As you've described, the male went up, the female went down. Okay? That's all based on the calculation process, which was done by Chagask, based on scientific assessment and the most recent science data. We had also that in relation to dairy cow excretion rates based on the introduction of banding. In other words, you're updating to take account of new science. Phosphorus, then, you are correct. Wastewater treatment tends to be a phosphorus issue rather than a nitrate issue, but that is modelled by EPA in terms of where the relative sources of phosphorus that are going into the system are arising for. Do you want to comment on Renewer, Ted? We'll need to finish up. So if there's a very brief response, one very brief. So to explain Renewer in simple terms, the acronym stands for Recovered Nitrogen from Manure Products. The amendment to the Nitrates Directive that was voted on last week in Brussels related to three processes that had been deemed to effectively create product that will behave very similar to chemical fertilizer nitrogen. But there are three very capital intensive processes and we don't have a manure processing industry here. You know, our system is based on animals out of grass, based on nutrient recycling within the holding, which is a very sustainable system. And I don't foresee, in the short term at least, us having the capacity or the volume of nutrients to justify the level of investment that would be required to create processed manure products in terms of that Renewer amendment. Sorry, Chairman. Byproduct of an aerobic, we work it on. It could be, but it would be subject to significant further processing. But it would have to be animal, would it? Well, in terms of Renewer, it's recovered nitrogen from animal manure products. So we don't count, to be clear, the Nitrates Directive limits the amount of organic manure from animals. If you have digested it that is coming from non-animal sources, that is countable as the equivalent of the fertilizer component, but not subject to the 170 limit. Who keeps track of that? In what way now? Who keeps track of the overall thing? So all these would be licensed facilities in general, in terms of when they would be managed by the local authorities and the EPA. Okay. I want the river that was clean. Clean the river you had. That's a contradiction of what you said to me. Could I ask one question? Could I just retort there? So I am unfamiliar with the river. I will stand by the fact, I said at the time, that whilst you may increase the flow, you can damage the habitat through dredging, and I stand by that. And you can impact the insects that are in that habitat, and insects are one of the indicators that are being used by the EPA. And every river recovered. That's where, what I am seeing. As I saw it done with the river, Islands River, did anyone look it up under the EPA what it is? One question I have. Just one short question, please. No, no, look. It's about export to slurry. We've gone over to... Yeah, but it's export to slurry. And we do have another group coming in. And I want to thank you for keeping it tight on the time, everybody. Thank you.