Paul Murphy warns AI chatbots must not replace companionship

Thank you for the presentations and for your work, and I think you've really gotten to the nub of the issue in terms of the relationship between ethics and the market, and who's driving this, and who's interested in being driven, and what's going to happen if we don't interfere with those market-driven development. Just to start on that, I mean, it's striking. If you think back to the early days of social media, this was sold to us all, and many of us believed it, that this is a way for us to be more connected. Stay in touch with your workmates or school friends or whatever. We're going to be more connected than ever before. It'll be great. And yet somehow, and I think people have this feeling, it's led to a society where people are less connected, more alienated from each other than we were before, even though we can go and see each other's pictures on the internet and so on, you know? And it's a sense that, like, but I signed up to this in order to be connected, and then somehow, some kind of impersonal than we were before, even though we can go and see each other's pictures on the internet and so on, you know? And it's a sense that, like, but I signed up to this in order to be connected, and then somehow, some kind of impersonal forces have actually made me less connected, and our world less connected and more divided than previously. And I fear the same can definitely happen in terms of AI. It's the same people, mostly, who are involved in driving it and certainly the same motivation. And that relates just to a particular question I have to age action on the question of chatbots because the likes of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, et cetera, they will tell us that chatbots are going to be great and they'll explicitly say older people are going to have a companion with chatbots. What's your view on that perspective and any case studies or examples of people using chatbots as companions or so on? I find the notion of spending my old age talking to a chatbot dystopian. I find that one of the most depressing things I can possibly imagine. There are many possible uses to which a chatbot might usefully be put. Personally, I don't think I've engaged one that can do anything other than send me a web address. But I presume at some point they'll get a little fancier than that. I do know that lots of older people who are lonely are susceptible to all manner of relationships. I was contacted by somebody recently who had begun a relationship with a carer because of the attention and the focus that was being provided and that was somebody who'd been recently widowed. So I think the risks in that space are enormous. And I'm going to say, this is a sexist thing to say, I think men are a little bit more vulnerable to it than... Because we women expect to be on our own as we get older. You men necessarily don't, right? So, you know, I think one, I find the notion... You guys may remember there was a conversation at some point about how the postman was the only person, an older person. Again, I was like, a postman's job is not to provide contacts with... It's to deliver the post. But a chatbot, A, is not a substitute for human companionship and, B, unless there are safeguards, like really deep safeguards built into that, there are real risks about it compounding. We've already seen people having relationships with Alexa. And they're not necessarily older either. Thanks a lot. I mean, a related question for anyone who wants it is... I mean, a feature of our discussion last week with young people and young people's representatives was the issue of social media algorithms, which are all AI-driven and how, you know, people are promoted without choosing to, toxic misinformation, misogynistic, pro-eating disorder, pro-suicide content, horrific stuff. I'd be interested if there's any experience of, you know, older people who might be more isolated, more vulnerable, going down a rabbit hole of misinformation. And if you have a view on the idea that these algorithms... What we'd propose is that these algorithms are turned off for young people, full stop, but that for adults, they're also turned off by default and people can choose with their open eyes to turn them on or not and to make their own choices, if anyone has any opinion on that. Sure. If you've just come in there for a second, because loneliness has come up a few times, right? I think they challenged the areas, and it's been in several programs for governments, and as an agency that's campaigned and run the loneliness task force and also runs a loneliness network, we have no strategy, we have no plan. So the danger is these things get developed in substitute for the plan we have. And if we don't have a plan, that's what will happen. So you used the phrase, you know, market-driven. Well, the point is, is if we don't have a strategy around how we combat loneliness, and loneliness is higher in younger people than it actually is in older people. It actually is. That's research, right? And the point about it is, and it's an emotional connection, and it will damage your physical and mental health far more than an awful lot of people thing, and we can provide evidence of that. But in the absence of a strategy, then this is what's going to happen. Similarly, with all AI tools, if we don't have a strategy, if we don't have a plan, we are at whoever decides where we will go wherever we are led by multinationals, etc., etc. And that doesn't mean they're all good or bad. And we have examples of this already. You know, an awful lot of health care has been privatised. And I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it wasn't a policy decision. There is no evidence of what was good about it, what was the pros and cons of using the private sector for this compared to social care or preferred things. There is no policy on it. It just happened. So we have a huge amount of services to older people that are completely privatised without anybody looking at it and saying what are the pros and cons. And I think that's the danger here. With no loneliness strategy, what will happen is, if there's a demand for a service here because of the levels of loneliness, ultimately the vacuum will be filled and we will have no control. Thanks. No? Also, actually, a lot of it goes back to when you retire. There's no strategy there for a gradual implementation to retirement and how to cope with it. You know, it's... Actually, there's quite a number of people that suffer from severe depression after they retire. Like myself, I did go through that phase and know what it's like and it's terrible. So, where we can introduce, one suggestion is where we can suggest to large employees, employers, a gradual implementation of retirement, whereby they take them off the floor and bring them into a HR situation to train new apprentices, a long-serving person, and gradually shorten their working week to maybe a four-day week and then down to a three-day week as it gets closer to the retirement. That actually will help. Regarding chatbots, there's a good side and a bad side. And we try to put that across to our students. So, the likes of... What can be asked and what shouldn't be delved into? We try to sort of separate the two when we have on a one-to-one basis. It's working. But just one thing to note, we actually have a third workforce in this country, and that's retirees. And they're free. Mm-hmm. Christ. You know, all right. The government pays our pensions and everything itself. But why not motivate them to get involved with things like what their specialty was when they were working? You know, the Men's Shed is a good example of practical involvement and that I'm working with the community. I'd like to think that where I live now in Wexford, there is actually quite a big community of people involved in different social aspects of things. and you don't... That sort of loneliness is also something that can be combated too. The social aspect from our point of view with the student is another aspect whereby we actually unlock what they already know, and it's surprising how much they know, but they're afraid to use it. And that's where we come in, in training on the GS Getting Started program. And it's very, very successful. The five weeks, two hours a week, they are totally different people when they leave. They're so happy that you've done something. And friendships actually grow too from it itself. We also keep our groups small. Eight, sort of, six to eight people, students at a time. So that's 12 to 16 people in all in the room, so they can interact with them. Okay, Niall, thanks very much.