Victor Boyhan Demands Clarity on IFFPG Review and Border Recycling

Thank you for hearing me. First I'd like to welcome the witnesses and I suppose I want to break it down into two segments. I want to talk to IFFPG and then I want to talk to the department, but I'll talk to the department first. At the very outset I want to apologise, I had to chair a meeting for the last hour and I couldn't get out of it so I've just left there now to be here. So I want to thank you. I hope I'm not going to repeat what other people may have said because I wasn't tuned into this particular meeting. But at the very outset I have a man that likes detail and I want to just raise to the department that the department, there was an opening statement by the then Minister Oisin Quinn TD, Minister of Estate at the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications with the responsibility for communications and the circular economy on the 15th of May 2024. Hold that date in your head and the statement. Today you're back before us on the Wednesday the 12th of November at 3.30. They're the two statements and you might as well have the same thing. There are sentences and sentences in this that are an exact copy of what was a year ago. So I think that's an important exercise I'd like you to look at tomorrow. As a matter of fact, I'll give you the measure on your way out here today. So that doesn't instill confidence in me that somebody could cut and paste the essence of this statement to the Houses of the Oireachtas. This is the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agricultural, Food and the Marine. And I'm disappointed with that and I want that message to go back loud and clear to your department and your minister because it doesn't represent or shouldn't represent your department the way it was. I thought firstly I want to thank you, Miss Kylie, for reading the letter into the record and agreeing to do so because that allows us to pay some reference to that here now because it's on the public record of the House. And I just want to say that you raised a number of issues that I thought were of concern and one of them was relation to the, related to, I'm just looking here on a note that I had taken earlier when I left, but it related to the border, concerns around the border area. Now, you and I will be aware of the fluidity and the flexibility, call it what you like, the porous nature of the border between north and south. We would also be aware of anecdotal suggestions or inappropriate behaviour in relation to the movement of recyclable goods across the border and how that has been policed. So I just want to flag that as a concern and I think that's an important point that I want you to confirm to me because I do my research before I come into these meetings. I want you to confirm to me what you know of the concerns around that because I think that's an important point to make. I suppose really the devil is in the detail and if you turn to your last paragraph and your statement that we've read before the committee here and I quote, because this is what it all hinges on really, the role of the department is oversight of IFFPGs, adherence to the terms of approval. A mid-term review was current, you know, was conducted, current approval was conducted in 2024 by the department and it requested the IFFPG to undertake a series of actions relating to the board. Now, I can only presume these relate to the contingency fund, corporate governance and the importance of corporate governance and the suggestion or possible hint that there were irregularities or concerns in relation to those matters. Again, I want you to share with this committee on the record of this house what those concerns were. We need to get to the bottom, we need to drill down here to this coded language that you've used or some of your officials have used. So the department requests and then it goes on to say the department is satisfied that the IFFPG is engaging positively. So it gives the impression that they weren't engaging positively up to this point in time. Someone chose those words. So now you're telling us that, and remember I've had sight of last year's statement that you left, read into the record, or the department read into the record of the house. So the department is satisfied that the IFFPG is engaging positively with the outcomes of the review and continues to monitor same. So you had concerns clearly here. You're monitoring those concerns. So I really want to know very quickly, and if you can't do it now, you can possibly write to the committee as additional information to these proceedings, what those concerns were, and how is the monitoring going? Because I think that's an important point. I'm turning now just quickly. Oh, yeah. In relation to the licensing tendering, call it what you will, I do think, and it struck me when I read these papers the other day, that, you know, there should be a public campaign around it. The public need to know that we live in an open economy, and, you know, competitiveness is important, but transparency is also important, particularly under the areas of the corporate governance codes of private sector and, indeed, the semi-state sector or, indeed, the state. So I think there's a really neat – and I don't know how many people are geared up with the capacity to take on this particular project. That's another matter that you'd be privy to, but you might share something with that. You will be aware – I want to say at the very outset, I'm very pleased to see some of the major stakeholders who have a huge interest in this and therefore experience, and I engage with stakeholders all the time, and I want to thank them for their engagement on this matter and other matters, and great to see them here, and I want to acknowledge their presence here. You will be aware that the Irish Rural Association raised a very serious number of issues, legacy issues, the hangover of the amount of waste that is stockpiled and everything. What is your view? Have things changed in a year? Are you aware of the stockpiling of waste anywhere in Ireland that hasn't gone through the processes? What have you done about it? Remember your key message here, in your statement here, the regulatory. You were mandated with the regulatory over that area. So you might share with us what you know, and I'll share with you what I sort of think I know, but I think it's important because people are looking in here, farmers are looking in here, the media is looking in here, people look at Iraq, this report, they take great interest in the work of this committee, and I'm only a conduit here at the end of the day to ask some of the hard questions, and hopefully you'll be able to give us the answers, and I'm also conscious of my time. So I suppose Irish Rural Link and other organisations raise very serious concerns. You would have been aware of them. They were discussed here at previous meetings, and you might just show us some attention there. And then just in relation to, in terms of the IFFPG, the opening statement, I mean, I am encouraged when I read words like that the IFFPG scheme clearly demonstrates that farmers are willing and able to effectively engage with environmental protection centres. That's encouraging. I think that's really, really important, because we need to get the message, you know, they're not wasters, they're not dumping stuff, they want to play their meaningful role. Yes, it has to be cost competitive. Yes, they have to have incentives. Yes, they have the capacity to have it taken from the farm or farm collections, or different methods, and there are time constraints and there are cost constraints in all of this, but we have to play a role. But I really, I really think most of what I want to hear from the department is from you, Ms. Kylie and Ms. McCormick. You're the policing of this. You're the, oh, so if you could just quickly touch on the concerns, but your concerns about the border, your knowledge, I want you to tell me your knowledge of the waste that has not been processed, the cost factor, the implications of that, and what, is there scams? Are you suspicious that there are potentially scams in this sector? Because I am, and I want to hear from you, your knowledge, and the department's knowledge in relation to these matters. Thanks. Thanks, Senator. Questions? Well, I'm the last, and we have plenty of time. Yeah, if you feel that we're running out of time, there'll be an opportunity to correspond and to, okay, to write back to the committee on it. I did say that. Thanks. And I suppose to say that there have been a number of letters exchanged over the last while between the department and the committees, and, you know, a lot of detail has been provided as requested. So, really, the opening statement is, well, it's designed to be helpful, but not necessarily swamp with a lot of original material. So, hence, maybe, it's very similar to the previous one. But I am absolutely, you're right in that the department's role is in governance and oversight, and some of the recommendations that we made as a result of the midterm review did relate to governance. And we were concerned that there were vacancies on the board, and that was one of the matters that was addressed to the group to ensure that the board members were recruited from the appropriate sectors and that all vacancies were addressed. And that any renewals and vacancies coming up would be addressed, and that was all addressed then in the annual report published this year in respect to 2024 again. So, like, there's a wealth of information there on the corporate governance, and there was also training provided for board members, because, like any board, it's an ongoing situation. It's a developing piece around governance, and there's a lot of updated regulations and responsibilities, and it's important that boards are aware of them. So, that was all done, and we were satisfied that that was addressed. The contingency fund has been treated, so measures have been taken to ring fence separately, the funds that are available to the scheme at the current time to be put into the contingency fund, and we're working with the scheme to ensure that that is built up steadily over the coming years to an adequate level. So, in terms of enforcement, there was a legacy of plastic at yards, and we were concerned by that. The waste enforcement authorities at local authority level were concerned by that, and working with the scheme, they have addressed that to remove the excess plastic and removed it to be recycled. So, they have, as we requested them to do, to organise a campaign to get that out of the yards and recycled in a timely manner, and we're satisfied that they have completed that to our satisfaction. The border, I think, was another concern of the centre. So, my understanding is that there is quite a differential between the price of plastic here and the price in the north, and a large part of that relates to VAT. So, there is more than just the levy in the difference, and there is quite an incentive there for people to avoid paying that VAT. So, the enforcement authorities, the local authorities, Revenue, the Gardaí, they are all available to the waste enforcement system, and they have all been cooperating with the IFFPG as well to tackle that illegal activity. And then, it's been outlined the steps that the group have made around ensuring that farmers who have paid the levy are also in a position to produce a code at the time of collection to ensure that there isn't any illegal material coming into the system, which costs everybody more money and drives up costs. I think that was – were they all the concerns? Yeah, can I have a minute to come back? Just to say, look, I want to thank you there. You've dealt with the points, but you've not really got into the Pacifics. So, I'm going to be very quick here to say, you know, this waste that's in the yards, you haven't confirmed if they're all cleared. You're saying you're satisfied that it's happening, but, you know – They're not all cleared, no. No, right. But I want to hear that. And I expected you here today to come and tell me the level of the problem that exists today. I don't want to hear about a plan or trajectory or a road or how many yards. I'm just going to flag that. The VAT issue, so revenue involved. Are you aware of revenue actively involved currently in relation to matters around this? They have been in recent months, is my understanding. Okay, within months. Okay, so that's great. Garda-Shakana, they're involved. They are involved. Are you aware – can you tell me that you've been engaging in the last few months with Garda-Shakana in relation to these matters? That would be for the enforcement authorities to do, and the Garda-Shakana are available. I don't know that they've been directly involved in this instance. Directly or indirectly, would you be aware – you should be aware of it. Not necessarily. Your department. But it's not a regulatory matter for the department. But surely down the corridor, up the back stairs, someone would tell you, they know the Garda-E, their revenue. The big boys are on the case here. There are problems. They're not sorted out. They're coming at you. You don't mess with the revenue. You don't mess with the Garda-Shakana. These are enforcement agencies. If there are issues around illegality that you have suggested, you know, I mean, I'd really like to see – I suppose, and I'll finish on this, Chair – I would really be making a further call. Indeed, I have a number of PQs now in my head, which I will go up to my office and type out. So they'll come your way in a few days. And it will be around the issue of Garda-Shakana's involvement here. Because rightly so, if there's illegality, there should be. If there's issues about avoidance of tax or the VAT rates north and south, the revenue should be on that case, too. I mean, we've got to clean up our act. Literally, excuse the pun. And to be told by you today, I wasn't aware quite to the extent, that we've yards full of stuff that haven't been processed. No, it's not full of stuff. It's – Plastics. Yeah. Well, can I just finish with this guy? So what are the yards full of? I said at the beginning that, you know, at the end of September, there was about 24,000 tons. So it's a cycle of filling yards and emptying yards. And there are – I'm sure there's hardly a time in the year when there's a time that yards don't have some material in them. Okay. So at any point in time, you know, there will be plastic. Can I suggest – It's within the permitted provisions of the contractor's environmental licensing, that they may hold material in the yards. So there's nothing wrong with material being in yards. You're satisfied. Everything is in full compliance. And there was nothing irregular or illegal in any of this sector. I have no reports of any illegal activity. You can say that on behalf of your department. I'd be confident, yes. You'd be reasonably confident or confident? I'd be very confident. Okay. Well, that's what – they'll say that. That's what – I need reassurances as the public need outside. Sorry, Mr Maloney. Yeah. I was just going to really reiterate what Bernie was saying there. We collect the material typically between April and, say, around October. So the yards are quite full then. And from then onwards until April of the next year, we collect very little. So we empty them out. So we're very comfortable with the volume of material that's currently in our contractor's yards. And we'd expect to have no more than 7,000 or 8,000 tons in our contractor's yards when they head out next April, May, with next year's Bring Centre programme. Our capacity for our contractors is 45,000 tons. So there's a lot of spare capacity there. We don't want to fill up the yards, but it's there. It's good to have it there. And as I said, we're comfortable with where things are at at the moment with the yards. Are you happy – now, finishing this, are you happy in terms of how this new service agreement contract is going on? Are you keen to keep going and be involved, or do you know of other stakeholders that may wish to express an interest? I have no idea about other stakeholders. They have the ability, opportunity at any time, to get an application into the Department if they want to become a competing scheme. But we're happy with the process that's underway with the Department at the moment in terms of the current approval renewal process. And you're happy with progress being made to date? Yes, we are. Thank you. Thank you, Graheerle. Thank you.