Mattie McGrath criticises Supervision Measures Bill and victims' rights

I would like to speak this evening on this piece of legislation, the mutual recognition of the citizens on Supervision Measures Bill 2019. As we have heard, the objective of the Bill is to allow persons who have been accused of an offence in Ireland and released on bail, subject to supervision measures, to be monitored in their country of ordinary residence. That seems simple enough. It also sets out the procedure for a person to be monitored in Ireland where they have been released on bail abroad. This Bill does not deal with supervision following conviction, however. The Bill is similar to that which I spoke on in January this year, the Criminal Justice Limited Recognition of Probation Judgements and Decisions Bill. That both deals with the national and international jurisdiction issues. The Oireachtas Library and Research, I want to thank them, has noted that the Bill before us this evening will allow Ireland to supervise bail conditions set by another Member State on a person who has alternately resized in Ireland but has been accused of a crime in that other Member State and is awaiting trial. Currently, a person may only request to be returned to Ireland after sentencing. Indeed, before I go any further, I want to commend Ms Lynane and indeed Mr Reddy, parliamentary researchers who put together such a comprehensive overview of the Bill and the implications it will have for us here. As I understand it, a researcher has indicated that non-citizens are often subject to pre-trial detention in circumstances where citizens would not be, as they can be deemed a flight risk. This can obviously be problematic, where a person has spent a substantial amount of time in prison, only to be subsequently found not guilty. That incident and proved guilty premise, Minister, must be always upheld, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, that is something we want to mitigate whenever possible, but it is not always possible in these cases and it is very, very unfair. In fact, when Minister Flanagan spoke about the Bill in July, he noted that the proposals in this Bill revolve around protecting the presumption of innocence and how that is the cornerstone of our criminal justice system. Dear noble words, Minister Flanagan went on to say that the Bill's proposals allow an accused person to maintain ties with family and continuing employment or education in his or her home country while awaiting trial. I quote, by providing for the enforcement of bail conditions and the return of the person for trial, the Bill also puts in place the necessary protections for victims and indeed the public, which is very important. That's why we are here to represent the public, and we must all the time be cognizant of them, but sometimes we aren't, I think. That, I think, is an essential element of this Bill, and I would like firm assurances from Tara, Minister Flanagan. Yes, we need to ensure that the innocent are disproportionately affected by having to spend long periods of time in jail or custody. But equally, we need guarantees that those who will be allowed to return to their place of ordinary residence abroad will be compelled to return. And how are we going to enforce that, and indeed provide proper legislation for that? We're not. And this must be guaranteed, Minister, so I think that's kind of weak in this piece of legislation. The victims of crime deserve priority in terms of the protection of rights, and they should be front and centre in all legislation and in this legislation. And yes, Minister, they should, and indeed in our own country fashion, the victims of crime, but sadly they're not. We have victims' rights, piece of legislation, and we have all these issues. I mean, I could quote many areas, but I have a woman unto me at present, a mother, whose daughter was murdered and her son was almost murdered, and the person convicted, and she cannot find out this status. I was only here six months, probably 12 and a half years ago, and she can't find out any information, is that prisoner released, or due for release, or whatever else. And total lack of engagement, and total lack of correspondence with the victim. We have the victim's rights charter, and we have everything else, but it's not happening. Your department is sadly lacking in engagement and in farming, and whether it's, and I don't blame the guardies, the local guardies, they don't know, but there's not proper communication, and indeed engagement, and follow-up. Where somebody is convicted, and sent away to prison, and she's petrified. I met her even last Sunday morning in the shop after a mess. She's petrified to think that she may meet that person. She believes that I can't find out, and nobody will tell me, but I mean, that shouldn't be. I'm not saying that you have a witch hunter on this. All they want is to be aware, and the family be aware. And we've seen countless cases of it, and you have to, Minister. And other TDs here, where it happens that they bump into, as they thought, prisoners in the street, and whatever else. It's devastating. The victims of crime must be front and centre on all this. While we have to have rights for the accused as well, and of course we have to, and innocent unproven guilty, but we must ensure that the situation regarding prisoners, and indeed the whole revolving doors, Minister, around bail. So look, I mean, the other countries that we're dealing with in this piece of legislation, and that we're hoping to give jurisdiction and agreement by this piece of legislation, they must all be laughing at us, because we have a revolving door system. And the amount of free-ligging aid, and the amount of bail, and bail, and bail again. And the judiciary needs huge reforming. And I took a small trip this morning down to the Four Courts on another issue, and the thing goes on. It's just, it's around there, the wigs and all, no mess with wigs, can't call it, but it's a merry-go-round. And I met a good barrister friend of mine who defended me once. He said, what are you doing down here? I said, I come down to see how you're implementing the laws that we pass above the place where I work at the moment. And he laughed, you know, and he might as well laugh, because I don't know how they're implementing them, but they're playing the game certainly, kicking the ball across and back and over and yonder. And, well, deep pockets as well, they're well paid for it. And I'm not saying a word to the man that defended me. He earned his money, and he got well paid, and I hope, and he did a good job. Because I was innocent, anyway. It wasn't a challenge, you know. Sorry? It wasn't too big a challenge. No, well, it was a challenge enough, but it was, because I was fighting the system. But anyway, being buoy going, but look, I thank them. I thank the jury as well. But for jurors, this country would be an over. They are very good people, and they go in, and they don't get anything. And their employers often, it's quite honest on them to look after them. And we need them. And we need them to be protected. But we must reform. And we're past this piece of legislation here, and not any other pieces, and without looking at what's going on here, the revolving door, and the complete abuse of free legal aid, 107 times and 120 times. It's just mad. I'm not going to lock them up and throw away the key metric, Minister. But I am certainly saying, if you have three strikes, two strikes, and the third strike of free legal aid, you're out. You pay up the next time, and you're pointing up, and you mightn't be as anxious again. So the criminal justice mutual recognition of the citizens on Supervision and Measures Bill 2019, I'm supporting it. And in case you think I've gone too far over the field, or back the field, or around the Bohar Yogg, or she's in the Boharine, I'm not. But there's huge issues around this. Huge issues, Minister. You know better than I do. You're a legal practitioner yourself in your previous employment, and you should understand the better than I do. But the people out there are worried and scared, and they're concerned that we're just not giving the good people out there to try and enforce the law. We're not supporting them, and we're not dealing properly with those issues. I wish this piece of legislation well, but there's an awful lot to be rectified and put right in our own jurisdiction here, Minister, before we ever embrace these pieces of legislation that are coming across from the EU and elsewhere. So I'll rest my case. Go raibh maith agot. The Prime Minister of Justice, to conclude the debate. I want to thank the Deputies for their contributions and their acknowledgement of the importance of this piece of legislation, and indeed the support that seems to be forthcoming from all sides of the House. It's a complex piece of legislation. It is a very simple objective, and that is to enable a person who is the subject of a supervision decision in one EU member state but lives in another, to return home and to continue his or her supervision there. While this legislation will not affect too many people, for those it will affect, it will have a considerable impact. A number of issues were raised in the course of debate. We'll have a further opportunity at committee stage. Deputy O'Callaghan raises the spectre of a no-deal Brexit. Of course, the UK will then be outside of these arrangements, and my officials are actively monitoring the potential impact of Brexit. It may be the case in the event of there being a no-deal, although perhaps that's less likely this week than a few weeks ago, in that event a separate arrangement may well be required. Deputy Sherlock refers to bail, and I want to assure him and others that the 2017 Bail Act went as far as possible within the confines of the Constitution, which clearly affords an accused person the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. An individual case was referred to at some length by Deputy Kenny. Of course, it would be imprudent of me to make mention to any particular case. It's a complex bill. It's quite a voluminous bill. We'll have an opportunity of coming back to it at committee stage, and I therefore commend the bill to the House. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you have us, so thank you so much for attending, and after all, ladies and gentlemen have kinks. Thanks to myCo+. Please, please winner me, Amy. For more information about BlocS 7, please visit us on the next day. Thank you for joining us, and I will adjust the call of the statement shows. I will move our car. Thanks to all the parcels of the frequency of this presentation, my formations and Narc parents 走 mother with and Hayas Court and which to speak from there. D! You are leading that fellow people to be dragged by, and I hope they tell us this to be our case. This is a typical number of it hardly worldwide. Ourneh.