Mattie McGrath on Abolishing Blasphemy Law and Religious Persecution

I am happy to have some remarks on the Blasphemy, Abolition of Offences and Related Matters, Bill 2019, here tonight. With the 37th Amendment of the Constitution, repeal of the offences of the publication, or utterance, of blasphemous matter, Bill 2018, was going through second stage in September of last year, I began by acknowledging that the issue of removing the offence of blasphemy was a source of deep concern for a very significant proportion of the population. I shared the view that respect for authentically held religious values has been on decline for decades. Anti-Catholic rhetoric, in particular, is rampant. Indeed, some have even described such views as the least acceptable public prejudice. That said, I supported the Government's Bill to repeat the blasphemy clause from the Constitution. As our Lord said, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. While many of us have wished matters to be different, it has been clear ever since the 1996 Constitutional Review Group report that the contents of the offence of blasphemy are totally unclear and are potentially at variance with guarantees of free speech and freedom of conscience in a pluralistic society. And that the end had been coming for the particular clause in Article 46.1 for some time. The issue also received a substantial and detailed analysis in the sixth report of the Constitutional Convention, which was established by the then Government in 2012. As I understand it, however, the Convention voted in favour of including a new Constitutional provision against religious hatred, with 53% of members in favour and 38% against and 9% undecided. I am aware that many people saw the position I adopted as some kind of concession to those who want to remove even the mention of God or the sacred from our culture and society. That is in fact not the case. I simply hold the view that it is not tenable for the State to involve itself in the making of theological judgments, most less enforce specific theological and philosophical judgments by any one particular creed or Church. I believe in the separation of Church and State. I do not believe, however, that the separation should become a division, because some people would like it to be a big division. The Church has a vital role to play in our society and it works effectively in the spirit of collaboration with the State on so many issues. That role needs to be respected and protected. It is not appropriate for the State to act as the guard dog of any particular Church. such a position harms both Church and State, an outcome that is in no one's interest at any time. In the broader international context, we know that one of the arguments put forward for the abolition of the offence of blasphemy was that it gave encouragement to other regimes where the penalty for such offence was death or some other awful physical punishment in some other jurisdictions. There is merit in that view but it is not the entire view. I am conscious now that perhaps we should have investigated that claim a bit more in a bit more detail. Because while we wanted to give the impression that we are now an enlightened people, the record of the State when it comes to protecting those who suffer religious persecution for their beliefs is very mixed, to put it mildly. In fact, in November of last year, I asked the Tarnasher and Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade if he made representations to the Pakistani government or its ambassador regarding the high-profile imprisonment of the Christian Ms Asia Bibi for blasphemy. I also asked him if requests had been made to his department to offer asylum to the individual and the person's family following the public disturbances and disorder following the individual's release. The Tarnasher assured me that the Atticating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion and that Ireland works within and alongside the EU and the UN to address the persecution of religious minorities wherever it occurs. But indeed, those words are fine and dandy, but we don't in actual fact. Deputies Grealish and Senator Mullen and I visited Lebanon some years ago and a hot topic at the moment on a pretty difficult topic talking about the refugees and asylum seekers. We met the Syrian refugees in their camps up in the mountains and thankfully we were there a few days when we met them and they gave us a fair falter, a wonderful welcome, young children and indeed very old grandmothers in many cases. They told us of the persecution, the savage persecution and they told us of how all the men had to flee and they got only 24 hours to either leave or be slain. And we were pretty chastened by what we heard and saw and we returned here to this parliament and to get a debate on it, no debate on it, the persecution of Christians and indeed many minority and Hutsi tribes are Muslims as well. Not only Christians are being slaughtered and it's sad to say that we found out that under Saddam Hussein or under Gaddafi and under the other dictators so-called they had freedom to practice their own fate. Full freedom. And then the coalition went in to American and English and all the rest and blew the head out of the place and caused massive destruction and now they have slaughter and we saw communities communities and countries states just minorities just genocide of the worst order and no meaningful debate here. And we tried and we tried and we tried and we tried. Government can't pay lip service it. No debate because we didn't want to offend the Americans or offend the British or whoever. and yes Minister yes it was rather pregnant that when we looked for a topical debate for three or four of us I think together and we got the topical and it was ironic that it fell on a holy third of the evening the evening of the Last Supper actually and it was very pregnant actually but that's the only debate we had that four of us members got together and thanks to the count caller for giving us any reasonable debate we have about what's going on in the Middle East and the atrocities and we're paying lip services and the Tarnish are telling me that under Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights everyone has the right to freedom of thought conscience and religion and that Ireland works within and alongside the EU and the UN to address the persecution of religious minorities whatever the court they do not we're shamefully lacking shamefully lacking as a country to work we have a proud record of peacekeeping all over the world our army indeed a proud record but as far as this concerned we're just nod on a wink and maybe we might raise it here or there but nothing publicly nothing said or nothing no proper calls or demands as a sovereign indeed neutral country that this not be carried out in our name and that we won't facilitate and that we won't allow Shannon be used for situations like that to be for munitions and indeed plane loads of soldiers going into and from the Middle East what's going on in the Middle East is just unbelievable and it was one of the best experiences of my life that I went and saw for myself what's going on there but to think that we have no debate on it here we have debates on everything we have people going to the courts today to get a debate on money messages we have debates on what do you name it broad range but we have nothing when it comes to our international role and the human rights and the protection of human rights we did look for help here when we were being persecuted ourselves but of course we have citizens now being persecuted here again in Ireland by the banks and by everything else in the system and we don't look after them either so the tarnisher wasn't correct when he said that you know that the Ireland works within and alongside the EU and the UN to address persecution we don't shamefully abysmally absent our vice is absence our vice is silence and that is pitiful and shameful for a modern free country but the case of Azia Bibi a Pakistan woman convicted in 2010 of blasphemy and sentenced to death does make that commitment very clear following an appeal the Supreme Court of Pakistan overturned our conviction thankfully in fact we have commended judges of Pakistan Supreme Court for doing so and for upholding the rule of law in a very difficult situation and we do commend them and thankfully her life was failed Minister Coveney also went on to say that Ireland attaches great importance to the fundamental of human rights and the freedom of thought conscience religion or belief but again how credible is that when we see doctors being threatened or removed from their jobs if they display a conscientious objection to abortion pretty hollow pretty hollow how credible is it when we see medical doctors and nurses and practitioners and we see them being threatened with the removal from their jobs by Minister Harris if they display a conscientious objection to abortion to the taking of a human life shocking and be threatened for fear we haven't enough or enough of the scarcity of doctors and nurses and I salute the courageous ones who have refused any hand-act or patent that savagery I supported the government last year during the blasphemy referendum not because I wanted to see a respect for God or the sacred diminish in any way I did so primarily because it has been clear for years now that our courts and legal system have found no meaningful way to prosecute an offence under the previous blasphemy law system so little point having a law on statute if we couldn't enforce it very little and there are many laws in statute who are barely enforceable and some not enforceable and some not even attempted to be enforced but it is very odd is it not that while arguments are being made that this bill will increase and protect freedom of speech the reality points totally in another direction minister totally a different direction polar opposite in fact we appear to be getting ready ready to out in place a kind of secular blasphemy law where it will be a criminal offence to say almost anything deemed offensive by the great and the good who constitute the new elite in our society and we are going down that road on a slippery slope and the great and the good and you know we are not allowed to have a contrary view we can't even have you know parishioners and indeed people in small rural communities who want to be welcoming who want to be engaging and who have full of generosity look at the money to give to the hospice and to god knows what and to the missions and everything else and then if they have a contrary view minister Fladding threatens them told them back off we need to have debate and discourse it's not a dictatorship we have you're thinking at times a community cannot express reservations about disproportionate immigration because that is now deemed or soon will be deemed as hate speech ridiculous I said the best of communities that have every organisation in the communities voluntary from tidy towns to community alert to Meals on Wheels Vincent de Paul hospice you name it welcoming engaging community that's all they want is to be treated with some modicum of respect by the government a government who has taken everything away from every last message of what they have they should be entitled to and all I say and I said all they want is to be allowed to live in peace not to have the heavy-handed law down on top of them and then when they want to do this work or when they want to have reasonable consultation and proper services put in place for our people who come here because of immigration who have fleed what I saw are fleeing from what I saw in Syria and Lebanon and we see the powder keg that Lebanon is and they need to be listened to and engaged with and not talked down to and not dictated to by ministers saying look put up or shut up and you're looking to be getting them and I blame the officials in the Department of Justice as well for not having a template at this stage and Boris and Kane and Tipperary not that they want to be used as a template but they can be used as a template now because the same thing happened here shoddy underhand work next thing they found out about it but they had a public meeting and salute Councillor Joe Hannigan and indeed the other four members and the public for coming together and had a proper discussion and we only wanted businesses to come in shouting hate speech at the meeting they were told where to go and now they have walked out and they are welcoming the Syrian refugees and are welcoming more families and more families to come with understanding and acceptance and stepping up to their plate and doing their bid for our less you know lucky neighbours from yonder in Syria and Israel it's handled it's handled that way and when I mentioned Ballard Green the other night where there was this quiet when it happened and then the local Faroga group got involved and wonderful salute them for doing it got involved with the teenage children and younger children because that's remember what I saw was women and young children and I have no problem with them coming at all and welcoming them but I had problems with the figures and the Taoiseach alluded to it the weekend the massive figures here from Albania from Georgia where 99% and 97% respectively have been refused into here because they're not they're not they're not refugees they're not fleeing any war any persecution they're coming here clearly as economic migrants and then that many have been to be port and I have the figures I just don't have them with me 99% and 97% refused by our system here and I salute to people working in the system and deportation orders but less than 70-80% of them have left where are they we can't afford that kind of money and the millions 50 millions and 60 millions we can't afford that kind of money here we're a small country and people will want to come in thankfully because we're a reasonably wealthy country and prospering and prospering a reason around prosperity parents cannot express difficulties and challenges around our school ethos and faith matters because this is now being seen as non-inclusive and disrespectful to those who have no faith it's shocking and the Catholic Church Deputy Connolly and others have demonised them and many others here day in day out but for them many of us wouldn't be educated and the way they ran the hospital through the matrons and the nuns and they did so much work and we should respect that okay there were bad apples in every battle and that happens but parents can't express difficulties and challenges around school they rush now to destroy our ethos and destroy our what has stood in school instead in time and there's a rush to throw it out those who have because there's no family educated they get or whatever I have no problem with people like that but they're not dictating about what should come down from the hospital and what original artefacts can be displayed here and there it's not the Muslim people and the many Muslim doctors that we have and we support them and welcome them they have no issue with the crucifixes and everything else but these so-called liberatos 80s they have they have a big problem with it they want to banish everything like that thankfully we had masks here this morning celebrated by a wonderful priest and had it in the Count Colas Dine Roma and had a good turnout and a holy mask for our former members but we hadn't it here from 2009 until about 13 couldn't have it immediately wouldn't like it we're running kowtow ahead of the media ahead of the liberals and we're going to end up with nothing we will see how this legislation works out in the courts we will see how the bill before us and the bills around free speech and so-called hate speech will walk themselves out as well Minister my feeling is that they will just become the new sacred idol and anything or anyone who challenges them will be guilty of sexual blasphemy we have to remember too that the constitution as it currently stands provides and I quote the state acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to almighty God he shall hold his name in reverence and shall respect and honour religion how can we get that balance right Minister do we even care about the part of the constitution anymore very selective of the part we want to promote and the path we want to trot on because attempts to remove that section will not be as easily supported for me for one our preamble states in the name of the most holy trinity from winning all authority and to whom as our final end all actions both of men and states must be referred we the people of era homely acknowledging all our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our nation and seeking to promote the common good with the due observance of prudence justice and charity so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured through social order and attain the unity of our country restored and concord established with other nations do hereby adopt enact and give to ourselves the constitution Tommy need to quick now to my mind that preamble speaks to much more than respect for God it speaks to issues surrounding how and where laws get their legitimacy are our laws just about majorities are mostly reflect a moral law written into the hearts of men and women I ask you minister that is why any attempt to remove the preamble will not be supported blasphemy laws in our state were a dead letter for decades it was not possible to bring in an effective prosecution so something had to happen to remedy that I just hope minister that we can ensure that religious people of all persecutions sorry all persuasions can have their views protected from deliberate attempts to ridicule our tech Gourmangul thank you deputy that concludes the second stage debate minister do you want to make some concluding remarks indeed thank you very much indeed Carhiluk and on behalf of the minister for justice and equality I certainly want to thank all the members of the house present and to those present last night for their considered contributions and their views on this bill can I say the minister acknowledges the broad welcome given by all members of the house in relation to the bill itself I also welcome the level of consensus on the bill which appears from deputies contributions both last night and this evening which echoes a very high level of support I think already apparent as most people have said here in the house on the people's vote that we had on this issue on the referendum last October I also believe that the intention of the minister for justice and equality assuming the bill is accorded the passage through the remaining stages of the house will be to commence the bill as quickly as possible could I just say maybe note a few comments from deputy McGrath as he is in the house and thankfully he's going to stay I know your reference to what's happening in the middle east is something that I have a particular interest in as well when I was chair of the foreign affairs committee I met all the minorities I met all the interest groups during that chair I'm sure the present chairman Deputy Smith and his committee are doing that as well so maybe he could note that the foreign affairs committee works really hard in that area in response to his comments can I just say to you that the minister for justice has already spoke yesterday in his speech presenting to the bill to express the governance of the use of reference to the contribution of blasphemy as a criminal offence in Ireland and to justify that the prosecution of religious minorities in certain countries such as the case mentioned by the deputy I think it's important to know that as well and also in relation to the deputy's reference to the preamble and to article 44 of the constitution the bill could I say to deputy McGrath does not propose any relevant changes to those constitutional provisions I think it's important to note this here in the house this evening and again can I thank all the deputies for their contribution on this bill and I hope that we can get a speedy passage of the bill through the house here so that the bill can be enacted thank you very much indeed thank you thank you thank you please thank you thank you thank you for your time