Michael Fitzmaurice: Quarries Blocked and Housing Costs Soar

Tisha, earlier on you spoke about the need for housing, and I think everyone agrees right around the Dáil here, the urgent need for more houses. You spoke about 50,000 houses, and that's welcome that you have that aspiration and indeed policy to try and back it up. But I would like to go to the nuts and bolts of this, Tisha. At the moment in Ireland, if you're a small quarry, you're four to five years trying to get planning. 300,000 euro minimum to spend in reports and get through the planning process. Minister Grealish is beside you there. From Galway City to the Atlantic Ocean is probably 50 miles at least. There isn't one quarry in that area now because they're all being blocked. And then you look at the cost. A load of stone and six-inch down 2013 was €4 a tonne. It's about €12 a tonne now. This is what you call costs rising constantly. And then we talk about muck away. And on the 1st of March this year, for the small operators that take in muck from housing sites, €10 a tonne is going on to a load of muck. A tonne. That's €200 a load. €3,000 for a semi-detached is going on to a load of muck. It's going on to each house being built. And you talk about cutting costs. And then the EPA and your department is going to say, oh well sure there's a way out. There's Article 27 and there's Article 28. Article 27 and I give you the facts of it. First of all, under Article 27, if I buy a new stone off a quarry, if I bring it in for what we call a haul road, that will be taken away again. To take that new stone away from that site, I have to employ a person and get a report done for €1,500 now, plus for the two samples €250 each. That's €2,000 more to take the stone out of new regulation that's gone in under Article 27. And Article 28 is where, and I'll explain it to you, if you had a house down the country that needed knocking and you basically knock it down and you put in a crusher and crush it up, you have to spend the same money on that house to be able to move that stone. That's what we're doing at the moment. In relation to concrete, concrete at the moment in 2020 was about €70 to €80 a metre. It's gone to a cubic metre. It's gone to €130 at the moment. And going up again, €10 because of carbon taxes, they will tell you, electricity costs, obviously the defective blocks is going to be part of it, but they are saying very clearly it's because of what they call this greenwashing that's going on in this country. And I would ask you, Tisha, how do you propose in the line of planning for quarries to reduce that figure and to keep them in the game? Are you going to allow stone shifted from site that was bought new to be exempted? Thank you Deputy Fitzmaurice, the Tisha will now respond. Yeah, Deputy, coming out of the weeds or just coming out of the mud maybe, what you're saying basically is the overarching planning framework that governs development in the country and the extraction of stone from quarries or the creation of quarries or indeed other environmental legislation. But I'm not quite clear in the specifics of what you're actually seeking. Because, let's start from the fundamental premise, we do need a planning framework. We do need a sustainable planning framework as well and we need sustainability. That's the basic position we come from. We then have to be pragmatic and I think we have to be balanced, we have to be efficient and effective in the deployment of those planning laws. There have to be timely consideration of planning applications and we have to do everything we possibly can to reduce costs. The biggest cause of the inflationary pressures of the last number of years was the post-COVID period where supply chains had broken down and there was an inflationary surge and the impact of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent energy crisis that emerged. And so we had very significant inflationary pressures which then impacted into the construction industry in particular. Now, we have resourced Commission Planola very significantly. They would acknowledge that. They now have created timelines for any planning applications and in many cases they are now beginning to get close to meeting those timelines. We've also substantially resourced the NPWS in respect of its obligations. The European Union directors on the Habitats Directive and on environmental law generally and consents are there. They are real. They can be judicially JR'd at any time and they can be contested. And so the role of the planning authority is to make sure that when they take decisions both at local authority level and at the Commission Planola level that are robust, resilient decisions that can stand the test of any potential legal challenge. That is a reality. If it takes shortcuts and you can take shortcuts in respect of the EU directives. Now, the European Union is looking at simplification of those directives and of the environmental obligations. They are examining those. I've made the case to Europe that we need to be far more pragmatic in terms of how some of these apply. And I think that the balance has to be struck between a responsible approach to sustainability and a pragmatic one as well. And best practice watching or observing what's going on in other jurisdictions as well, close to us to make sure that we're doing it in a balanced and effective way. I haven't had a submission from the quarry industry. Perhaps others in different departments have, but I would gladly receive one and engage with the industry to discuss. Deputy Fitch, what I'm saying to you is, the facts are, if I'm a small quarry operator, it's going to cost me 300,000 to do the reports that those planners need. That's not sustainable for the small guy. Do you realise this minute that Ireland is heading, and put it on record here, we are heading for four quarries in Ireland because the big guys are mopping up. And I would urge you to get someone to research through Land Registry who owns the quarries now in Ireland. Four of them are buying up everything around them because they have the League of Eagles, they have the accountants and they have the funds behind them and the small guy is being pushed out of it. That's the facts of what's going on. I understand about the habitats directive, but look what's going on in this country in relation to that. Also, the Department of Environment has brought in recycling, Article 27 and Article 28. Do you realise who's setting up those plants around Ireland? Because there are 12 million to set it up. So what will the small fella do with the three or four lorries in some part, in some small town that's trying to build trucks? He has to bring his book away. Have a look at what's going on. Open your eyes to what's happening. We are heading for four quarries in this country that will own recycling and will own the quarrying of this country. And we cannot see what's happening. You know what happens then, up with the price. Your time is up. First of all, recycling works in construction. I can recall in advance of the London Olympics. How many years ago was that? Deputy, you're no different to anybody else. Don't interrupt the answer, Deputy. You didn't even let me finish. It'd begin, actually. Back prior to the London Olympics, I was Enterprise Minister. Many construction companies in Ireland wanted to see could submit and tender and so on like that. The objectives of that was up to 90%, 80% recycling in terms of all the demolition and everything in respect of that. That wasn't law. That was their objective and their vision. And recycling is very important. We should do it. And it can be done. And it has been done. Now, on the competition issue, you're saying it's going to be reduced to four. We have the competition and consumer authority. Deputy, its job is to make sure there's competition in the market. And if there are any complaints, or people have concerns about any unsavoury practices developing, well then please submit that. Thank you, Taoiseach. The competition authority. Moving now to...