Paul Murphy Demands Breakdown of €115m/Month Private Hospital Deal
Paul Murphy questioned the government over the emergency lease of private hospitals, the application of the wage subsidy by airlines, and worker safety during COVID-19. He demanded a breakdown of the estimated €115 million-per-month deal, raised concerns about profiteering, said subsidies must be passed to employees, and called for stronger workplace enforcement.
Private hospital costs and capacity
Paul Murphy cited figures given to him and to the Taoiseach: an estimated €115 million per month for 2,601 beds, which he calculated as about €44,000 per bed. He contrasted that with reports the NHS deal in the UK was £72 million for 8,000 beds (roughly €10,000 per bed) and asked where the Irish payments are going and whether there is profiteering involving private owners like Dennis O'Brien and Larry Goodman.
Government response on usage and payments
The minister replied that access to private beds and intensive care facilities was secured to protect citizens if COVID-19 intensified, and that payments would be capped depending on actual usage. The minister said he did not have a detailed cost breakdown immediately available but would seek what information could be publicly shared, subject to any commercial confidentiality.
Wage subsidy concerns for airline workers
Paul Murphy raised concerns that Ryanair and Aer Lingus had reduced some workers' pay to 50% while using the wage subsidy scheme, which the rules set at 70% of average net weekly pay for January and February 2020 based on payroll submissions to Revenue. He cited a press statement by Michael O'Leary and questioned whether the practice was consistent with the scheme's rules, arguing taxpayers' subsidies should be passed on in full to employees.
Workplace safety and enforcement gaps
Murphy relayed reports from workers who said they did not feel safe at work, including factories and a fast-food outlet where distancing and shared machines were problems. He said a worker who contacted the Health and Safety Authority (HSA) had been told pandemic inspections were not in their remit, and he urged the minister to resolve the issue by signing a ministerial order under Section 35 of the Health, Safety and Welfare at Work Act to enable inspections and enforcement.
Parliamentary exchanges and demands for accountability
Throughout the exchanges Murphy pressed for clear answers, criticised the lack of a cost breakdown, insisted the full subsidy should reach employees, and repeatedly demanded the minister resign. The minister reiterated willingness to provide what information can be made public and defended the rationale for securing private hospital capacity during the emergency.
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First question is about the deal with the private hospitals. So the Taoiseach confirmed to me earlier that the estimated cost is €115 million per month. That's for 2,601 beds, which works out at an average of €44,000 per bed. It's been reported in the UK that the NHS's deal with their private hospitals is worth £72 million per month. That's for 8,000 beds. That works out at an average of €10,000 per bed. So my question is, what's the breakdown of the costs? There's 8,000 staff in the private hospitals, so that would be €14,000 per person. So it's obviously not all going on staff costs. Where is the money going? Is there profiteering? And fundamentally, why does it look as if we're paying four times as much per bed than the British NHS to private companies which are owned by people like Dennis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, etc.? So I will double check the figures that have been given to Deputy Murphy and I'll check what the Taoiseach said earlier on in relation to the level of payment that's been made for private hospitals. But Deputy, the fundamental reason why we have access to this bed capacity is in particular because if COVID-19 intensified in the way it could, the beds that are available in the private hospitals and in particular their intensive care facilities could play a critical role in keeping our country safe and avoiding loss of life and keeping more citizens healthy. So that is the reason why the government made the decision to lease those facilities from the private health sector. And of course those payments will only be made available up to a maximum level depending on what the usage of those facilities is across that period. Obviously that didn't answer the question. The Minister knows it didn't answer the question. The Minister is the Minister for Finance. Does he know the details of the agreement? He might answer that. The second question is, it's been touched on, is the question basically whether, is Ryanair abusing the scheme? Ryanair and Aer Lingus have done something similar, have reduced their workers down to 50% of their wages and are availing of the wage subsidy scheme. And there's a press statement from Michael O'Leary which says this openly, we're putting people on monthly income of 50%. But the rules of the wage subsidy scheme say that it should be, employers should apply for 70% of average net weekly pay for January and February of 2020 based on payroll submissions made to revenue by the employer. And so that doesn't seem to be in line with the rules. The rules are saying you can get 70% of the January and February. However, what's happened is that people's wages have been cut to 50% and then they're only getting 70% of that. Well, Deputy, I answered your question earlier on and I know who I am and I know what job I'm doing. You asked me why have we entered into an agreement with private hospitals. And I explained to you, well, Deputy, why we're entering into an arrangement with them. I gave an answer to you. I don't have available to me a breakdown of what the individual costs are in relation to us. But I will get information in relation to us and notwithstanding any commercial confidentiality agreement that might be there. What is available to me and that which can be publicly shared with you, I will share with you. In relation to whether any individual company is participating on the scheme or not, I'm not in a position to comment on any company who is on the scheme, but I will say that it is my absolute expectation that the subsidy that the taxpayer is making available to any particular company, that the full value of that subsidy should be passed on. Sorry, Cian Corley, I just want to conclude on this point because I think it is six minutes, that the full value of that subsidy should be passed on to an employee. Cian Corley, just the record will show my question was not, and it's fair enough if the Minister heard it that way, my question was not why have we done it. My question was can we see a breakdown and are we paying four times as much per bed. Well, the Minister didn't answer, but the Minister spoke in the answer section, which is fine, you may not have the information. The third question I want to ask relates to the conditions of workers who are in what are deemed essential workplaces and are currently going to work. I've been inundated by communication from workers saying that they don't feel safe at work. Some examples, Bout and LOM employees saying a factory working with hundreds without the required distancing, machines being shared with four or five people, workers scared to speak out. Another fast food shop, a worker there, too busy for social distancing. Well, Minister, Cian Corley, it's not, let's take the seven minutes. No, you wanted one minute per question. I'm willing to take the... You wanted one minute per question. You wanted to differ with everyone else. We've done that for you. No, no, Cianor, I wanted it in line with the way you agreed that the business committee would be done. Please resign. Please resign. Please resign. Please resign. Please resign. Please resign. Please resign. Please resign. Will you resign? And are you going to let me get up again then, or no? I'm not sure if there's time. If you stop... Can I just use the time now to finish the question, and then I'm happy this is my last question, Cianor. Okay? There might be time for an answer, but go on then. Okay, I'll make sure there's a minute of time for an answer. The point is, another worker went to the Health and Safety Authority and they were told, because it's a pandemic, it's not under their remit, they will not be inspecting. And that's the issue. The Health and Safety Authority has publicly said, it's not our job to enforce the HSE guidelines, COVID-19. We cannot do workplace inspections. That's a huge problem, and it can easily be resolved. It can be resolved by the Minister signing a ministerial order under Section 35 of the Health, Safety and Welfare at Work Act to expand the powers of the HSE to cover the COVID-19 guidelines. Will the Minister do that? Mr. You have 57 seconds. Thank you, Ken Crow. I understand, actually, Deputy, that that is a matter for the Environmental Health Section of the HSE, is the information that I have in relation to it. I mean, all employers, by this point, should be fully aware of what the responsibilities are for them. And if any employee feels any concerns in relation to their physical safety, they should absolutely be in a position where they could speak up, where their employers should respond back, and where workplaces be made safe. And the public health guidance from the government on this issue is very, very clear. The National Public Health Emergency Team has issued guidance on this. And I also understand that the NSAI has provided COVID-19 workplace protection and an improvement guide to assist workplaces in this area. Thank you, Minister. Only essential sites are allowed to remain open. And I want to say again, Deputy, that this is a matter for the Environmental Health Section. Thank you very much, Deputy Michael.
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