Paul Murphy Challenges Green Jobs Report, Urges Public Transport Jobs

Thanks a lot for the presentation and the submission. To start anyway, I want to focus in on the question of green jobs, which I think will really be central in terms of, or should certainly be central in terms of job creation in the coming years. And I know you have a very long report on skills for zero carbon from the expert group. And obviously there's a lot in it that is very good, a lot that I'd agree with. But I do think it tends to take a pretty narrow view of what kind of green jobs will exist. So a couple of questions in that regard. One, there doesn't appear to me to be any reference to public transport in this very long report about skills for zero carbon. The only mention of bus within the report is an approvingly cited case study of how electric car take up in Norway was enhanced by allowing them to use bus lanes. So kind of pushing towards electric car use as opposed to the significant modal shift away from cars into public transport promised by the Climate Action Plan chapter on transport. So why is it the case that you didn't include, for example, you know, the need for more skilled train, tram, bus drivers, support staff, a massive expansion of our public transport? transport and the jobs within public transport and the jobs within public transport as part of green jobs? Thank you very much, Deputy. Well, first of all, the report had a very specific focus. It was on renewable energy, residential retrofit and electric vehicle deployments. That was its concern. There are other aspects, obviously, in terms of green jobs. And indeed, after this meeting, the expert group is meeting to look at its work programme for next year. And these are, you know, there's other aspects you mentioned, public transport, things like the circular economy, etc, which are part of this green job agenda, which we will consider as possible as a possible input to our work. So, I mean, I take your point that obviously the switch to public transport is part of this agenda, but this particular report had a focus on these specific areas. That was its remit. And just to add to what Tony is saying there, in terms of skills forecasting is a core part of our work as well. So we need clear indications, we need clear definitions of what the ambitions are and how they will be delivered by particular government departments. So in terms of why we focussed in on the wind and solar piece and the residential retrofit piece and the electric vehicle piece was because the plans as defined by the relevant government departments were the clearest in that respect. They were deemed to be the main contributing factors in the targets that have been set for 2030. So it is going to fully, fully, there is potential there, providing that there is a clear definition provided on public transport, we could do study in that in the future as well. Thanks a lot. OK, well, to tease that out. So I'm taking it kind of from you that the relatively narrow remit for that report you're saying comes because there wasn't clear enough indications from government about this is what we're going to do in terms of public transport. And to be clear, I mean, I'm completely on board in terms of the retrofitting, I'm completely on board in terms of solar power, power, renewable energy, I'm sceptical about the focus on electric cars as a way to go. Let me, while you come back on that, also throw in another issue that perhaps may be covered by your next item, which is the inclusion of what are known as care jobs as green jobs, jobs, i.e. jobs in child care, health care, education, jobs that are inherently very low carbon, but produce quite a lot of benefits for society. And they're increasingly being included in the definition of of green jobs. And I think appropriately so and would encourage you to include them in, you know, whatever next reports you're doing on this. Thank you, Deputy. In terms of I have to confess, I haven't seen care jobs thus classified, but I mean, I take your point because there are demographic factors which are going to drive the demand for health care employment, you know, at a huge rate. And that's and child care as well, probably to a lesser example, we've got, I mean, child care is a much broader labour markets issue that has to be addressed. And it's our failure in child care that has fed into some of our other labour market shortages in terms of encouraging female participation. But I take them separately because health care is and Alan mentioned earlier, sometimes it's sometimes these are labour markets shortages and sometimes they're skill shortages and sometimes they're a combination of both. And there is a challenge in encouraging people into health care per se, but there is a new health care apprenticeship that's either being launched or just about to be launched. It's a challenge. It's a challenge, which has taken a number of years to get this across the line. And to encourage people into that sector, you need to provide formal training opportunities and progression routes. So it goes back to my previous points on apprenticeships, why they're so important. And I would suggest that health care is a really important example. You might come in at a particular level, but if there are training and progression opportunities and we're more likely to encourage people into that sector. I mean, obviously, there's debates about pay, etc. But I mean, that's not the remit of the expert group. It's really the skills agenda. And I think it's particularly pertinent in health care. And again, in the professionalisation of child care as well. For some similar reasons that you have the potential to advance in terms of child development opportunities. So that's my sort of reflections on those two particular sectors. But where you came in, I suppose, in that sort of definition of green jobs and what green jobs are out there. It would be nigh on impossible to produce a report on every potential occupation that would be either disrupted or newly created because of low carbon targets. We have to be relatively specific. As you said, this was a pretty large report just looking at these three areas. But we do have to filter in if we are to because we always try and measure the supply side and the demand side. We try to put numbers on the demand side. A particular focus of the EGFSN is say, look, we need X number of ICT specialists. How many are the education system producing and try to match up that supply and demand? If the remit of any one research project was too broad, it would lose focus. Having said that, I accept your sort of broader comments. Alan, do you want to add anything or do we have time? I have nothing to add. Thanks. Maybe if I have time for just one final question in relation to the whole area of housing, which is obviously where you're projecting a very significant and necessarily so rise in the labour force. A question, and maybe you will say this is beyond your remit, which is fair enough if you do. But is this an issue in terms of attracting in construction workers when apprentices are starting on as little as seven euros an hour and suffer from all the issues? And that's been discussed previously on this committee in terms of the SEO about, you know, being sent home when the weather is bad, which doesn't happen for other workers generally. Lack of sick pay, travel costs, things like that. Is that an issue in terms of attracting people into the sector? So, suggested deputy, we do not look at comparative wages. The only comments I would make though on that is that there are some apprenticeships which are, and as you know, in the craft area, they tend to be governed by wage agreements. And some apprenticeships which are pegged to the rate for a particular job are relatively well paid, I would suggest, but they also have challenges in recruiting people in. But as I, beyond that, I don't, it's not something that the expert group comments on in terms of pay relativities. Okay, thanks a lot. Your time is up there, so. You