Paul Murphy urges open, competitive system for board appointments

Like the Minister says, he is in favour of an open, competitive and transparent system to appoint the board. Great. But then in the next breath you say I am going to vote against an amendment which would make sure that I have to bring forward a proposal for the establishment of an open, competitive and transparent system. So you are against the amendment which is going to ensure you do the thing that you say you are going to do in any case. So forgive us if there were therefore a little bit doubtful as to your intentions of doing it. Forgive us if we look at the record of Fianna Fáil and planning and we would be a little bit doubtful. Forgive us if we see the process of the removal of an board Planola as an independent body free of government and ministerial control and interference and instead ultimately ministerial decision about who is on it that we are not a little bit dubious about what is happening here. There is obviously a context to this which is also in terms of the bill that is coming down the line after Christmas. So this is a very, very minimal in reality amendment. It is very limited to say that you come back with a proposal about what this open, transparent process that you are supposedly in favour of is going to look like. So then we can actually democratically discuss it as opposed to giving a carte blanche to you. And obviously the consequences of this are quite significant. I mean this is an enormously powerful board. The consequences of the decisions that it makes are immense for communities, for people who are looking for housing. It is very, very important. The current system isn't a good system, agreed. But we do need to have a system that is a genuinely independent system. So it is not the current system, agreed, but it needs to be a genuinely independent body. Whereas the real danger of what is happening here is that it is not that whatsoever and that you get to appoint who you want, bluntly. And that could be done in a kind of skilful way whereby you have a supposedly open and transparent process but it is not really and you get to appoint who you want. It could be done just you appoint who you want. Or we could actually do an open, transparent process, etc., etc. But the best way to reassure anybody who has doubts about these things, who might not accept the sincerity of Fianna Fáil on these issues, is essentially just accept the amendment and say you are going to bring forward these proposals and allow the Dáil to debate. Well, if you wish. Yeah, I do. I do, indeed. And I thank Deputy Matthews for his intervention there. And again, it puts it in context, I mentioned it earlier on just before you arrived, is that if you look at the existing system that's there right now, it isn't fit for purpose on the appointment. It certainly is not. And it is. It does exclude people too. An open, transparent competition process is open to everyone. And I said that earlier on, but to reinforce again what Deputy Matthews has said, and he's correct. It's to be open for everyone to apply. And we've detailed in the legislation the type of skills and expertise that we would be looking for, which is a vast improvement on what was there before. To answer specifically to Deputy Matthews' question with regard to marine ecology, we're currently in the process of the only appointment I'm making under the existing legislation is in relation to the specialised marine planner. And we're very clearly designated within that, that detailed knowledge and expertise of marine ecology and biodiversity is an absolute prerequisite for that role. Passes are actually in the final stages of that process because we need to move ahead to have that expert in the board who will head up the marine planning team there. Obviously, with the express intent of moving forward with the ORE and our offshore renewables and actually underpinning and moving forward then with our marine planning act and everything that we need to do within that in relation to our marine protected areas and that. So that process is well underway, expect that to be to be concluded, to be concluded very shortly. I did say to members earlier on, you know, we can't have a cliff edge between the old system and the new one. And the appointments that are being made, which again, isn't a paragraph, I said that earlier on too, there's no way, shape or form. We're appointing interim people to the board to literally add resources to it so they can do the work so the board can actually do the work that it needs to do. I've met the staff on the board. I went down there a number of weeks ago. There's some absolutely brilliant, brilliantly committed people who have gone through a really, really difficult time. They need to see movement on how we're going to restructure how the board works itself, how the board functions itself. Because the board has, and its reputation, I've said this publicly and I'll say it again, because of what has happened this year, has taken a serious battery. And this legislation here is the start of that reform process. And we do need interim measures in place. I think, in fairness, that's been agreed by most members here, that we need to ensure that we have our interim chair in place with the functions and the powers that she needs to actually exercise her role within it. But when people refer to Section 6, it's important to read all of Section 6. I'm not going to, because I don't want to delay deputies there. I would just suggest that you do. Deputy Matthews has gone through the subsection A of that. But right the way through, and yes, indeed, it says, look, the minister shall establish a suitable, independent, objective and transparent procedure in accordance with the recommendations. Recommendations may be made to the minister in relation to the appointment of ordinary members on the board. So we are going to establish a suitable, independent system that will be in place. I've said to Deputy O'Brien and to members here as well, I have absolutely no difficulty, and I'll give a commitment here this evening, that when that procedure is fully worked through, and we do have an idea about what we're looking at, and we need an efficient way of doing this too, that I will absolutely come back to the committee with it. But the legislation needs to pass, the legislation needs to be able to provide us some flexibility in that space of the type of process, but it will be far better than the process that is in place now. And I can say as someone who has had experience of actually having to appoint people to the board and also to deal with that process right the way through, the nomination system could lead to 20, 30, 40 names coming forward. All of those people who are nominated and have applied for a position all interviewed or met effectively. And no recommendations in written form made whatsoever to any minister. And you know, and that's the position there. So I would actually say that there's a greater risk using the current system or retaining the current system and to the integrity of a new board, there's a much greater risk if we're to retain that system. And I don't want to do that. And this government doesn't want to do that because we need a board that sits at the apex of our planning system that is fit for purpose, that the legislation underpins it, but that we need to structurally change it. And we will have the Consolidated Planning Bill, which will be a further advancement of this, which will bring further changes to the board and its structure, which I outlined in my remarks at Second Stage. So what I'm saying today, I do understand and respect the views of deputies that they've raised here this evening and the, you know, the trust of the amendment that is there. But I put it to you that Section 6, as it's outlined here, we're setting out very clearly what we're going to do. I've said to deputies on the record of the House here as well, very clearly, that when the procedure is, we've concluded the work on that, we will go back to the Joint Oireachtas Committee and let the Joint Oireachtas Committee know. We need the legislation passed. People who've tried to portray this as a type of power grab and, as I said earlier on, are going back to the future with bad practice before. It's anything but. It's actually, it's a fundamental change in the way in which members of the board are going to be appointed into the future. And that will be further enhanced by the structural changes that we're going to make to the board, which I won't discuss here because that will be subject to pre-legative scrutiny as well by the JOC. That will be in the first quarter of next year and into the second quarter that we need that consolidated planning bill passed. But I won't detain deputies any further. I have said that I won't be accepting amendment number one. I think the discussion around it has been useful, but I won't be accepting it.