Gino Kenny urges decriminalisation debate on drug regulation

Thanks for everybody for their statements today and obviously the last 18 months has been a huge challenge for everybody but obviously in relation to addiction services and community services it's been hugely kind of challenging to say the least and those that were in the throes of addiction prior to the pandemic would have found the last 18 months extremely difficult and I'm sure people prior to the pandemic have probably found themselves in a situation where they are addicted to something that they were not addicted to before the pandemic and you may have seen that manifest in their services in the community and that could be a range of things from alcohol, drugs, gambling in particular because obviously more people are staying at home and all the factors and that so you know it's the rules of engagement and the game have changed in the last 18 months and probably have changed for a considerable amount of time for a considerable amount of time in relation to everything that we experience as people. My primary question is in relation to the Bally 1 Task Force and I know nobody has mentioned this today and I am an advocate of having a different debate about addiction. We need to have a different debate and that debate we need to have about is about decriminalisation, decriminalisation rather than of the drugs. We need to have a debate about regulation of drugs. We need to have a different debate. We need to have a different debate. We need to have a different debate in relation to decriminalisation and it suits the establishment, the political establishment to let people rot in some ways and let communities rot on the sidelines because you know they don't care. Essentially they don't care because they don't care because it's not on their doorsteps. So that's what I mean. We need to have a different debate. We need to have a different debate. We need to have a different debate. We need to have a different debate in relation to decriminalisation. We need to have a different debate in relation to decriminalisation. We need to have a different debate in relation to decriminalisation and it suits the establishment, the political establishment to let people rot in some ways and let communities rot on the sidelines because you know they don't care. Essentially they don't care because it's not on their doorsteps. So that debate needs to change and that debate needs to start with looking at different models on how we treat people and how we actually look at the way people take drugs. People take drugs for all sorts of reasons. Criminalising them and this merry-go-round of vast resources going into criminalising people and all that simply doesn't work in my eyes. It doesn't work and it's a waste of resources. I just want to ask a question in relation to the task force. How would they view the decriminalisation model? Now in Portugal, the evidence is there. Decriminalisation saves lives, takes people out of the criminal justice system and has better outcomes for everybody. So that's one question and also a question that goes beyond decriminalisation, which I think we need to go beyond that, is about regulation and regulation of some drugs. Again, I just think criminalising people for cannabis use is a waste of time, absolute waste of time. You need a regulated system where people are not criminalised or sanctioned for cannabis use. So that's the question and I would like to hear the views on it. Thanks. Thank you. Hughie, would you like to come in there? Or Marie or Kate? Yeah, I suppose just when you ask for the task force's view, I very much can't give the task force's view because each task force represents their own certain sort of range of different community services and local people and so forth. I think there would be a general sort of welcome though for a debate around it. Already in the drug strategy, the recent drug strategy, there's a health-led approach so that people with forced offences for drug possession will have a health intervention rather than a criminal intervention. There's a diversion sort of system being introduced and that's very welcome. The issues I raised at a community level around the level of sort of disruption caused by organised drug dealing in a local neighbourhood area won't be dealt with by a discussion about criminalisation or decriminalisation. We need community policing to make those communities feel safe and reassured and so forth. So just to emphasise that point. But I think there would be a general sort of welcome of a discussion on it. It's a very, very complex issue. Even the issue of decriminalising cannabis presents all sorts of issues in terms of some of the psychological damage done by the strength of the cannabis products in place at the moment. And the way they're being sold at the moment is a real cause of concern in terms of the cannabis edibles that people are running. Internet deliveries of jelly babies that are cannabis infused and stuff like that and how that's leading to sort of damage for children. I think there was some publicity around some of that recently. I think local communities demonstrated their view of how they feel about criminalisation or decriminalisation when the head shop debate was in place a number of years ago. And I remember particular protests about a shop in Enfield, I think it was, where people sort of voted with their feet and had it closed down very, very quickly because they saw that there was no place for it. So, and I think that's reflective of the complexity of some of the issues that, you know, for example, if we were to, if alcohol was a brand new product and we were to introduce it in Ireland, there's no way you'd introduce it as an unregulated free for all substance that anyone can access because of the damage it does. And the, you know, the, you know, the lives that have been lost year on year, you know, you'd introduce it with sort of very, very strong regulation. So, the issue of decriminalisation, I think it needs to be debated and, you know, carefully debated, but legalisation as it's happening in some of the states, we haven't seen the research around what that's going to do for psychological health for young people in those states and just like Colorado and places like that. Katie, did you want to come in there? Yeah, I think some of what you're speaking of, you know, as well is, like in Ballymun now, we've started a Ballymun trauma informed community, and all of the agencies statutory, non statutory, everybody's involved in it, and we're starting to get that momentum going. And I think that is kind of an offshoot really of this decriminalisation thing and a more understanding and a more compassionate way of understanding of why people use drugs and alcohol. And the guards were getting trying to get the guards involved in that as well. So, it's kind of separate, but I think it is part of the whole thing of the way, you know, that you asked around how we actually look at substance use, you know, and people that maybe in some services or some agencies don't really understand. I think that, you know, there's been such a buy in to Ballymun trauma informed, it's in the early stages, but it is happening. And I think it is part of that whole decriminalisation thing. It's kind of like a subset of it, actually. Thanks, Katie. Serena, do you want to come in there? It's more a personal point of view, Francis. I suppose I come from an absence model, but I have friends and colleagues and family who might have a different view. You know, so I think it's a debate. I can only share my own experiences and I always share that if people can take or leave cannabis and so-called recreational drugs, I don't see them. But I see a lot of people who have huge difficulties as a result of extensive cannabis use. And for that reason, I find it very difficult to support a suggestion towards decriminalisation. And that's just a personal view. My colleague Serena might have her own views too. I would share that same view. I think the evidence, you know, is emerging that there is, you know, there is a link, particularly in young men, between cannabis use and psychological difficulties. So, as Gerry said, you know, if there are people who can take or leave them, we don't see them. But we see the people who can't and also the people who maybe aren't presenting to us with cannabis as an issue, as a primary issue. But cannabis is often where they started. So, do you know, you have one minute left if you'd like to? Yeah, yeah, just very, very briefly. I just found some of the contributions quite slightly depressing, I have to say. They're kind of, no disrespect for people, but it's quite out of date in relation to some of our views. And obviously there's a myriad of views in relation to regulation or deregulation. But at the moment, and this can't be disputed, we have a situation where all the drugs that we speak about are illegal to have and possess. Now, can anybody say to me, with a straight face, because of the misuse of the Drugs Act of 1977, that that situation where it was meant to control these drugs, there's no control. There's no regulation. So, you have a situation where the black market has filled that vacuum and they have done all sorts of damage to communities. Now, can anybody seriously say to me that that system works? Because it doesn't. And when anybody says that it does, well, it's fooling themselves. It's literally fooling themselves. The present situation is unsustainable. It's costing thousands of lives every year because the lack of will. The political will by many, many people in this place. And that is the fact. That's a fact. Can I come in here, Gino? Just to say to you that this discussion here today is really around, I suppose, addiction and the impact of COVID. And while I hear what you're saying, and I do think it is a discussion that needs to be, we need absolutely and utterly more debate around it and more engagement around it. But we are veering off, you know, the topic today. And I think this is an issue that, you know, we need to bring into both health and mental health and justice into the committees as well. So just to say that to you, you know, but I totally hear what you're saying and I understand your frustration. But we have to move off the topic today because today is really around the impact of addiction and the impact of COVID on the services. So I hope that's okay, Gino, but we appreciate you making the point. Thank you very much. Thanks a million. And unfortunately, we have to move on. Our time is on. We have to move on. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Bye.