Gino Kenny on Drugs Treatment Court: Questions and Concerns

Just a number of questions for myself in terms of the Drugs Treatment Court. How many people, how many times a year would the court sit? So that's my first question. Every Wednesday. Every Wednesday. Except for August. So 48 weeks of the year. And how many people would come before the court? On a given week? On a given Wednesday. Say 20, 20 odd maybe. It depends on what phase of the program they might be in. So if it's bronze, we try to bring them in every week so that we can keep in contact with them at that early stage. Silver should be fortnightly and gold monthly. But then we'll also, you know, if somebody has other commitments or they're working or in other programs, we'll work around that to stagger the business. Okay. And would that be the same 20 people? Like on a continuous basis? Or is that 20 people, different people every week? No, it'd be continuous. So whoever's on the program at the time. So say we've 20, about, what should I say, 27 currently. And so we'd see them quite regularly then. Quite regularly. Over that period of a year. Yeah. And so forth. And obviously it's a very good concept. And the first time I've seen it was the Philly McMahon, the documentary. It was, you know, it was a very, very good documentary. And it showed, you know, the positive sides of diversion and kind of education and so forth. So the concept is a person goes there and they try to, I presume, if I'm, my understanding is that it tries to separate a lot of issues in terms of the dependency issue, the sanction issue, and also the kind of, I suppose, the issue of the person. And they try to, you know, separate them. So what's the interaction between the judge and the person that's there? What's the kind of, I suppose, you know, the interaction? What is the interaction? What happens? Well, I suppose in the courtroom, the judge will have a conversation with that person about how they're getting on. If they had goals, how they're getting on with those goals. If they want to tell the judge anything about one particular, you know, it's not just like a regular court sitting where there's legal representation. Well, they will have them at the start when they come on to the programme first. But then it's about their voice and them speaking directly to the judge. And if they have any issues, what they might be enjoying about the programme or not, and that's all discussed during, during the session. Okay. And can that judge kind of issue any sanction against that person at any time? Sanction as in? I suppose, not a criminal sanction, but can they say, well, look at, we, we feel that, you know, your own progress is not progress in the way it should be. Yeah. And we're thinking, you know, this court may be not for you. Yeah. And that can happen. But during the course of the programme, we use an incentivised point system. So it's something to encourage progress. And there are sanction points as well. And what, what does progress look like if somebody has, you know, problematic use or substance? What does that, what does progress look like getting to the gold standard, the gold, I suppose, the gold, gold medal as such? Well, I suppose it's reducing their use of, of their drug of choice. Right. In the first instance, but also progress to us would be other areas of their life. Yeah. I would say it's not a programme for everybody. No. But if we can help someone might come into us and they don't have a medical card, they don't have a local GP. And our team will work with that person to get that. And for them, that's a progress. Yeah. Or reducing if they're, you know, using many drugs, if they're coming off some and leaving on less, that's a progress for them. Yeah. Or someone who may have dropped out of school early, they're in our education programme and they may get to achieve a QQI or an in-house cert. Right. That's progress for them. Okay. And would people that come before the courts just say they have, I wouldn't say problematic use of say cannabis, for example, they maybe use cannabis every day. Would there be that cohort of people that, you know, will, it doesn't necessarily mean they will use cannabis every day, but they will use it at a frequent basis per week. Would you have, you know, people of that kind of, the cohort of people? We would, yeah. Okay. Okay. And obviously what the City of the Assembly has recommended in terms of diversion. Because I feel if somebody uses drugs and they don't have a problem with using drugs as a problematic use, I just think it's a waste of resources in terms of if that person is, you know, the resources for the State say to them, well, you do have a problem, even though you don't have a problem. Because there's lots of people that use drugs in this state that don't have problems with substance use. And I just feel, you know, that, you know, I think it's a debate that we probably need to have further in terms of, you know, drug abuse and drug use in terms of, you know, if people want to use a substance, I think that's their prerogative. And to be criminalised and to kind of, you know, to be sanctioned, I just think it's a waste of, ultimately it's a waste of resources of the State and so forth. So, yeah. A lot of people who were before the Drug Court have been up in court on not drug possession. And they're up for other issues, other crimes like theft and burglary. And it's identified at that stage that they have a problem with drugs. And that's when they're referred to the Drugs Court. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.