Matt Shanahan on PPE, procurement and public service reform

Minister, firstly can I congratulate you on your appointment and wish you the very best of luck in your new role and I think the country will need that too for sure. Can I just ask you in terms of the learning that has occurred from Covid-19 planning and the measures that might be implemented into the future regarding public policy planning and procurement from recent experience gained if you please. Thank you Deputy Minister. Thank you very much Deputy Shanahan for your good wishes and for your question and I look forward to working with you over the term of this Dáil and I think it's a really good question that you have put forward here. So I'll read the official answer and look forward maybe to some engagement on any particular issues then that you want to discuss in the course of this debate. Covid-19 has been an unprecedented public health emergency with implications across the economy and society. For that reason there has been a whole of Government response led by the Department of Taoiseach and involving all departments with many other public bodies including my own department. As the Deputy will be aware the Government has established the Cabinet Committee chaired by the Taoiseach to assess the social and economic impacts of the potential spread of Covid-19. The work of the Cabinet Committee includes addressing the impacts, mitigation measures and contingencies for cross-sectoral issues which arise in areas beyond the health service building on the effective public health work undertaken to date. A whole of Government approach to Covid-19 response requires cohesive decision making, a partnership approach, expert public health advice and clarity of communications. As the Deputy will be aware the Health Secretary response has been led by the Department of Health and the HSE and questions in this regard are a matter for the Minister for Health. Due to the nature of its role my Department has been involved in a number of areas of the overall Government response including but not limited to the following. There are a whole list of them, I will just read a few of them into the record. My Department has engaged proactively with relevant departments from an expenditure perspective throughout the crisis and the Deputy will be aware that the Government has agreed to allocate substantial additional funding to a number of votes to meet additional costs including for example in the social protection area and in the health areas. The crisis has had major implications for employers and staff across the civil and public service. And my Department has provided leadership direction and a collaborative approach to managing the complex issues that have arisen for public service employers. There is a fair bit of length to the remainder of the reply. Perhaps that might be read into the record and so we have time for the engagement. Thank you Minister. Deputy Shanahan, please. I suppose could I just say to you one of the areas obviously expenditure and management of expenditure is your oversight. But I think some of the issues that have come up in COVID particularly would be in the issue firstly of procurement and procurement of supply chains I would say. So we have seen that we have had to run down to China and spend in order amounts of money in trying to secure the supply of PPE. When in actual fact there has been a number of companies in this country over the last number of years who can provide that and it is time for I think HSE procurement to take a far different view on that. Also I would point out to you the private hospitals deal that was done recently that excluded private fee paying doctors and ultimately reduced the amount of capacity that we were able to secure. These are things that I would like to see your Department taking some leadership on. And also the question of indigenous manufacturing and you are quite right. Your Department is supporting employment and is supporting the pandemic unemployment payments and the wage subsidy schemes. But actually what we need is procurement into the SME sectors as well. Thank you Deputy. Minister please. Thank you Deputy. Minister please. Yes, thank you very much Deputy for raising those points. I think one of the issues that will have to be considered by Ireland or by the European Union generally is whether we should be reducing our alliance on other countries such as China for the provision and manufacturing of essential items that could be required in the event of the pandemic becoming more serious again. I think that is one issue that we do need to become more self-sufficient in respect of critical services and critical goods for our economy. That is certainly a key issue that I am determined that my Department will play a role in trying to manage. I think our economy will change as a result of COVID-19. I think the increase that we have seen in remote working and more flexible working will be here to stay to some extent, not to the extent that it is at the moment, but it will certainly be there I think across the civil and public service. And the aim is that next year that we move towards 20% of working time would be from remote working from home across the public service for many public servants. I think that would be a really good change. And I think the public service has shown an ability to adapt. It has adapted at a time of great change and I think it has performed exceptionally well. And I think we need to now see that level of flexibility implemented in adapting and putting into effect some of the reforms that are necessary to improve our public services even further. Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you very much, Minister, and I certainly look forward to engaging with you too. I think that one of the things that must be borne out is the state is the largest purchaser in the country. And I think we have to get far more radical in terms of how we procure services and products in this country. I point out to you that at present there's a list of necessary pharmaceuticals and about 175 in total, I think 135 of them now are only made in China and India. And we need to consider these things as other countries do in terms of securing future supply lines and safety in terms of future pandemics and future health risks. But as I said in another forum, hopefully, Minister, we can engage and maybe look at that in greater detail. Thank you. Thank you, Deputy. I think the point you've made about essential supplies and securing the supply line is a really important one. And it's one that we will need to reflect on very carefully as we develop further our economic response to COVID-19, because those challenges could emerge again. And it's not just Ireland, but many other countries were faced with that reality, where a lot of large-scale manufacturing has moved to the Far East, essentially. And there is a dependence there that has built up. And I think it is a real learning for the entirety of the European Union that needs to be taken on board and put into effect in new policies. In relation to the whole procurement issue, I should acknowledge the work of Minister of State O'Donovan when he served in that role previously. And I know that Minister of State Smith is really keen to continue with the work to try and open up procurement opportunities for small and medium-sized Indigenous businesses in Ireland. That is a key objective of this Government. It's reflected in the Programme for Government. And we are determined to build on the progress that has been made so far in collaboration with all the various representative bodies to try and cut through some of the red tape and open up those procurement opportunities insofar as we can. Thank you, Minister. Thank you.