Matt Shanahan urges PCR airport testing to curb COVID spread

Thanks, Chairman, and thanks to our members from the department here today. Could I go back to the issue of airport testing? I have been out in the media last week and earlier this week requesting that we do PCR COVID testing, which I believe is eminently feasible at Dublin and the other airports. I have made the point already that if we do not do it at the airports, we will end up doing it in community here a little bit later in the year. So I note the comments that were made by the previous speaker where he said that I think the medical advice was that the testing regime was not robust enough or did not capture enough and therefore essentially was not almost worth doing. So I point out that PCR COVID testing, which is what we do in the hospitals presently, is about 80% to 85% effective and I am not sure that there is any test anywhere that is more effective than that. So essentially we decide when we test that we are going to miss people who are asymptomatic at the time or very early on in the infection, they do not show up and essentially a subsequent test if they have symptoms is how we establish the fact that they are COVID positive and then we go through all the rigmarole of contact tracing and all the rest of it. I heard what you said about testing in outside airports or foreign centres and I am wondering, has anybody looked at the costs of doing that, what we are proposing to do abroad that we could probably do now quite easily here and we certainly know the costs of doing it here. I am not sure that we are not sure that we know what we are going to pay for doing it abroad and we will still have the same amount of slip through regardless of where we do it. So maybe if somebody wants to take that for a moment please. Maybe if I could just give some remarks and ask Finton to address if there is anything else that he wants to add. I guess the benefit of departure testing deputy is that first of all the person would be required to take the test herself or himself within 24 to 72 hours before actually departing. And that result would be presented to the INIS on arrival at Dublin airport. And obviously the person wouldn't travel if a negative test or sorry if a positive test was returned. The benefit of that would be that the person would not have actually travelled, would not have potentially come into close contact with all of the fellow travellers. And therefore we would be avoiding a situation where if you had entry testing and somebody became positive or tested positive that we would have to do all of the follow up that would be required with the fellow travellers. So there is that benefit. There is also the benefit of the cost being borne by the traveller. And there is also the issue with regard to capacity. So the capacity for testing on arrival doesn't arise if you have departure testing. So that's why we're looking at that as closely as we are. And there is the potential not only to do a high street test where a person would purchase their own test and do it, but we could up the standardisation of that through colleagues in the Department of Health, National Public Health Emergency Team and the Health Protection Surveillance Centre, so that we would set the bar relatively high and apply that to departure points. And again, that would address issues with regards to capacity, credibility, obviously, and cost. And so that's why we're looking at that as hard as we are. Can I say, I'm sorry to cut across, Mr Spratt, but my time will be limited here. So I accept the logic of what you're proposing. Okay. But the next question is then, if this is the route we're going, A, are those tests available at the points of departure or prior to people departing? And B, when do you see something like this being put in place? Yeah. Still being considered, Deputy. Yes, they are. As I said, it is possible to purchase reputable COVID-19 tests and to take them yourself in most countries around the world. So, yes, they are available. And were we to move to the Irish Applied Standard, that is something that is being considered in consultation with colleagues at the Department of Health. Well, I think one thing. That will take some time. There's obviously potential there for people to, I suppose, defraud that test in a way if you're presenting your laminar test flow or whatever it is you bring in your show and you say, here's the result I got. It would be like bringing a pregnancy test kit with you to show somebody the stripes of it, because that's effectively what you're addressing. And those diagnostic test kits that you're talking about, that's essentially how they work unless you have another one and you may have that I don't know about. I'm not an expert. I know a little bit about it. But anyway, having said that, I think the most important thing is that the department needs to flag, if that's what's being proposed, that it get proposed and it gets done. Because we need to do something with certainly the foreign travel, particularly from the US and South America in particular, and other countries that are not on the green list. But going beyond that then, and we've heard from the aviation sector here this morning, and we've more or less, I think it has been established that getting on a flight and assuming that people don't have COVID. But for those that are asymptomatic, the transmission rate would appear to be very low because the negative air pressure in the cabin, because the recirculation and the HEPA filters and all of that. So we can assume that we're saying it's safe then for people to get six hours and be beside one another wearing masks. And the question then is, why are we not doing that for the taxi sector? Why are we not mandating masks? And I heard the previous contributor saying that a taxi man can ask people to put on a mask. I would remind you that a bus driver was kicked to death in France a couple of weeks ago by two people full of alcohol because he asked them to wear a mask getting on a bus. And I don't think it's operationally possible for a lot of people, particularly for those who are earning very little money if they go back out taxing to start asking customers to wear a mask. Because the first thing the customer will say, I don't have it. Secondly, the taxi man will have to supply it as his expense and even then they may not wear it. So I think it would be far better if the department took a leadership role here. And I know you'll go back and say that the medical advisors and the effort and everybody else hasn't come to you and said it's a good idea. I think we need to look at what's going on in other countries. And you're a lead agency here and I think you're quite in a position to come out and say it's the position of the people gathered here around this table this evening, the leadership of your department to say we're making a strong recommendation that masks should be mandated for taxis. Is that a reasonable position? Yeah, just before we go on to the masks for taxis, I guess it is important to note that we are learning as we go, that we are at the start of a lot of the measures, particularly when it comes to international travel. I suppose the engage, explain, encourage approach that we have taken up to now has worked quite well across the board. You know, if somebody were to take a test at departure point and be positive and decide, you know, to hell with this, I'm going to travel anyway, and to decide themselves to put people in danger, that would be, you know, pretty serious decision for that person to take. It would be contrary to what we've seen in terms of, you know, almost universal compliance with requests to be in this together and we would expect that we would continue to see good compliance along the lines as we have seen up to now. Deirdre, do you want to address the issue with regard to face coverings for taxis, please? Yeah, you're right, Deputy, face coverings are important and we are moving to introduce mandatory face coverings in taxis. The first priority was to arrange it for mass transit, which is the buses and the trains and the trams where you have large numbers of people moving together. And that has been introduced. We understand the compliance levels are very high. The NTA have been in constant touch with the operators of the services and we're hearing of rates typically in the mid 90 percents and in some cases 100 percents, particularly strong compliance when the vehicles are more full at the peak hours. I don't mean to be rude. I'm very limited on time here, so I'm glad to hear what I would say to you is, please, urgency, urgency here. I know you're looking at it and you're considering it and you're analysing it. What people want to see out there, and I think for public confidence, you need to demonstrate urgency. You know, to say to us here in committee today that you're looking at it and you want to get it done in the public transit, there's no reason why it cannot be done across the board. Ask the government, if they have to, to put some emergency legislation in place to mandate it. That's what needs to be done with respect. I ask you also, it came up here this morning with taxi drivers about screens that the NTA essentially don't have any preferred screen to give protection between the drivers and their occupants. And yet at the same time, if somebody puts in a screen, they're essentially breaking the law, they probably have an insurance issue. Can we not find some common ground here to basically make recommendations that this is not rocket science? I'm responsible for two incentives, for two initiatives that were taken up by NPHET. I'm not an expert, but if I go and look at these things and I talk to the people concerned, logic would tell you what we need to do and they can be done. And I'm frustrated asking you the questions here today, why these things can't be done and listening to what we're listening to. And I accept that the department has, you know, a remit here that they have to look at it in the round. But this is not rocket science. These are simple measures and they will give confidence to the public and they will give confidence to employers and generally show the country that we are trying to go in a way to mitigate this disease and not make simple solutions so difficult to implement. You can come back to me, please, in writing about the screens for the taxis. Can I read something into the record here vis-à-vis a person who has a limo business doing weddings? This gentleman, the structure for limo driving for weddings, this gentleman has vehicles that must be NCT'd every six months and the cars are then booked in for a suitability booking, which is an inspection to grant the licence. They pay this every six months for the service and licence. This gentleman paid over the phone for a suitability test and then it got cancelled due to the lockdown. He was refunded for the booking, but he had paid out for the NCT's on his cars in the lockdown, which have been idle for the last number of months. He has now tried to book again and he is being informed that he has seven days in which to complete the booking. And if not, he has to have the NCT's done again. He has received no reimbursement for the NCT's and is now expected to carry out 13 NCT's in the next seven days or face a €500 fine per car. Can we please address this type of nonsense and this lack of joined-up thinking? We have people out there who are at their wits' end in business and we have government regulation in different departments who do not talk to each other and small business people are being hammered time and time again. They cannot get into business and when they are up in business all they have is one regulation to meet after another. I implore you, please, the same with driving tests. I have a young lady who has graduated college, she has a fantastic job, one of only three in the country, and she needs a full driving licence in order to get this job. And she cannot get a test. And by September, she has been told by this multinational, if she does not have a full driving licence, they cannot offer her the job because it is a contract of employment. And I am running around trying to see how can we get her a driving test and we are told there is no safe way for a driving test to be completed. Now, I would say dual driving cars could have a screen placed in them and we could certainly get emergency driving tests done. Is that an unfeasible ask again, I ask of you? Deputy, thanks for bringing those issues to our attention. I think it is really important to remember that COVID-19 is throwing up an awful lot of challenges to the private sector, to the public sector, to the civil service, to state companies and to state agencies. I would, and it is really important to remember, we are doing really, really well when it comes to the suppression of this virus. If you look at the stats, we are in the leading pack when it comes to suppressing the virus. And that is down to how the Irish public have responded under the leadership of departments, including our own department. It is not the case that we have solved every problem and there are still plenty of problems to be solved, including the problems that you have mentioned there. But we will redouble our efforts and do everything that we can do in order to try and identify those issues and solve them where we possibly can. So, you have brought some issues to our attention there. We will look at those and we will see what we can do to try and resolve them as quickly as we possibly can. Well, Mr Sparkle, I say I do not wish to argue the epidemiological outcome of COVID and how we are doing with it. But I do think what would be of benefit, and this committee is not the place to do it. But there are TDs and other representatives around Leinster House who will be very happy to meet with the department. And we will be very happy to bring these issues. And some of them are quite small. A quick decision could get them answered. Okay. And I think that is what all of us want here. We want to see movement. I accept it is difficult. And as you say, there are new learnings, but we are all on a learning curve here. It would be better if we learned it together. And we can do that by having engagement. And I would seek engagement with yourself and any other deputies on the committee that want to come with me. And can we try to get these issues spoken about and see if we can come out with some resolutions for people, please? Happy to do that, Deputy. Deputy Shanahan. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy. Deputy.